From owner-freebsd-net@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:03:57 2018 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-net@freebsd.org> Delivered-To: freebsd-net@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FF610B50A2 for <freebsd-net@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org>; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org (outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.247.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 709877C7E6 for <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: 99cde7c4-c7fd-11e8-aed8-99744f00ac98 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound1.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 99cde7c4-c7fd-11e8-aed8-99744f00ac98; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:47:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w94HljgT000365; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:47:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Ian Lepore <ian@freebsd.org> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: FreeBSD Net <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:47:45 -0600 In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqHG=t2NPPrP3LtpCnu+_pVXFRCapkLVJWCfaFnXvXj2w@mail.gmail.com> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <CANCZdfrMbD1U0u-3WQJYnoyyZitJKQo5CnBTeZVbZ2ONjt20pQ@mail.gmail.com> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <CANCZdfqHG=t2NPPrP3LtpCnu+_pVXFRCapkLVJWCfaFnXvXj2w@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-net@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Networking and TCP/IP with FreeBSD <freebsd-net.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-net>, <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-net/> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-net@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net>, <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:03:57 -0000 On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore <ian@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > here > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > waned > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > > at > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > because > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > later... > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > Warner I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list we still use appears to be rl. One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. -- Ian