Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 15:11:51 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org> Cc: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Rust: kernel vs user-space Message-ID: <CANCZdfq-as=YyY6fLpr=9WsoUbqThm51FxMbOEh6kvVegxTeiQ@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <40836902-cb68-45e0-b4ec-623c21aa47ba@FreeBSD.org> References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <7533543.20240904114624@yahoo.com> <0.2.0-final-1725440949.866-0xb4bb20@qmda.emu.st> <65ED39B7-099F-43FD-9F53-68286125A65E@FreeBSD.org> <0.2.0-final-1725443552.800-0x2fa4dc@qmda.emu.st> <bd1419b2-5705-4ea6-8238-d98eb072cda0@FreeBSD.org> <FAB9B773-A51A-4208-A2C9-0CE0604A5235@gid.co.uk> <40836902-cb68-45e0-b4ec-623c21aa47ba@FreeBSD.org>
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--0000000000001cc4ae062151a08f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 4, 2024, 10:42=E2=80=AFAM Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org> wrote: > Am 04.09.24 um 17:21 schrieb Bob Bishop: > > Hi, > > > >> On 4 Sep 2024, at 15:37, Stefan Esser <se@FreeBSD.org> wrote: > >> > >> Am 04.09.24 um 11:52 schrieb Mark Delany: > >>> On 04Sep24, David Chisnall apparently wrote: > >>>> There are lots of control-plane things that I'd love to see > >>>> written mostly in Lua, > >>> It was remiss of me to not mention Lua given that it's already in the > project. > >>> Yet another language which could make life easier, more productive an= d > more accessible in > >>> user-land. > >>> I'm not suggesting for an instant that any of these programs need > rewriting, but one could > >>> imagine that if commands like ifconfig, route, arp, ndp, ipfw (that > is, programs which > >>> take a lot of user input and do a lot of data manipulation but aren't > super-critical on > >>> the performance front) were written in a more accessible language, > then it might attract > >>> new developers without disenfranchising the core C developers. > >> > >> Here is ldconfig in LUA, written more than 2 years ago, for example: > >> > >> https://github.com/stesser/ldconfig/blob/main/ldconfig.lua > > > > And this is better than C because ...? > > > > (Asking for a friend :-) > > There had been a request for an architecture independent implementation > that works on all FreeBSD releases and architectures. > > The LUA run-time has been available in FreeBSD for a long time, and it > is a stable platform suitable for the implementation of commands that > operate on text and might take advantage of features like associative > storage. It is a "safe" implementation since memory is automatically > managed, which reduces the risk of memory management errors (but we > have to trust the LUA interpreter to be free of such issues, instead). > > I have not made this version available for review (but instead updated > the C version to work with hints files of either byte order). But this > code is much simpler than the C version it replaces, and it could easily > be extended to, e.g., prepare hints files in chroot environments or in > images prepared for an architecture with a (possibly) different byte orde= r. > > And it is not only independent of the byte order and portable over all > architectures, but also independent of the FreeBSD version. > > The LUA version is much shorter and easier to understand (if you know > LUA), but one reason not to propose it for inclusion in FreeBSD is that > there are many more developers that know how to work on the C version > than on the LUA version. > > David and Mark have mentioned LUA, and there is little LUA code in the > base system, currently (mostly the loader). I'd like to see LUA being > used for more functionality that is not time critical, and since the LUA > language has been very stable over time (other than many other interprete= d > languages), it is unlikely that a LUA script will not work on a later > FreeBSD release (it only depends on a working flua and possibly some > LUA include files). > I do most of my string processing code in lua these days. I think this reimplementaion makes sense: it helps in cross building. I have a config successor doodled out in lua... Warner Anyway, this is off-topic for the discussion about rust, other than > that LUA is a language that is not affected by many bugs that are > typical for programs written in C. > > Best regards, STefan > > --0000000000001cc4ae062151a08f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 4, 2024, 10:42=E2=80=AFAM Stefan Esser <= ;<a href=3D"mailto:se@freebsd.org">se@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am 04.09.24 um 17:21 schrieb Bob Bishop:<br> > Hi,<br> > <br> >> On 4 Sep 2024, at 15:37, Stefan Esser <se@FreeBSD.org> wrote= :<br> >><br> >> Am 04.09.24 um 11:52 schrieb Mark Delany:<br> >>> On 04Sep24, David Chisnall apparently wrote:<br> >>>> There are lots of control-plane things that I'd love t= o see<br> >>>> written mostly in Lua,<br> >>> It was remiss of me to not mention Lua given that it's alr= eady in the project.<br> >>> Yet another language which could make life easier, more produc= tive and more accessible in<br> >>> user-land.<br> >>> I'm not suggesting for an instant that any of these progra= ms need rewriting, but one could<br> >>> imagine that if commands like ifconfig, route, arp, ndp, ipfw = (that is, programs which<br> >>> take a lot of user input and do a lot of data manipulation but= aren't super-critical on<br> >>> the performance front) were written in a more accessible langu= age, then it might attract<br> >>> new developers without disenfranchising the core C developers.= <br> >><br> >> Here is ldconfig in LUA, written more than 2 years ago, for exampl= e:<br> >><br> >> <a href=3D"https://github.com/stesser/ldconfig/blob/main/ldconfig.= lua" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ste= sser/ldconfig/blob/main/ldconfig.lua</a><br> > <br> > And this is better than C because ...?<br> > <br> > (Asking for a friend :-)<br> <br> There had been a request for an architecture independent implementation<br> that works on all FreeBSD releases and architectures.<br> <br> The LUA run-time has been available in FreeBSD for a long time, and it<br> is a stable platform suitable for the implementation of commands that<br> operate on text and might take advantage of features like associative<br> storage. It is a "safe" implementation since memory is automatica= lly<br> managed, which reduces the risk of memory management errors (but we<br> have to trust the LUA interpreter to be free of such issues, instead).<br> <br> I have not made this version available for review (but instead updated<br> the C version to work with hints files of either byte order). But this<br> code is much simpler than the C version it replaces, and it could easily<br= > be extended to, e.g., prepare hints files in chroot environments or in<br> images prepared for an architecture with a (possibly) different byte order.= <br> <br> And it is not only independent of the byte order and portable over all<br> architectures, but also independent of the FreeBSD version.<br> <br> The LUA version is much shorter and easier to understand (if you know<br> LUA), but one reason not to propose it for inclusion in FreeBSD is that<br> there are many more developers that know how to work on the C version<br> than on the LUA version.<br> <br> David and Mark have mentioned LUA, and there is little LUA code in the<br> base system, currently (mostly the loader). I'd like to see LUA being<b= r> used for more functionality that is not time critical, and since the LUA<br= > language has been very stable over time (other than many other interpreted<= br> languages), it is unlikely that a LUA script will not work on a later<br> FreeBSD release (it only depends on a working flua and possibly some<br> LUA include files).<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div= ><div dir=3D"auto">I do most of my string processing code in lua these days= .</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think this reimpleme= ntaion makes sense: it helps in cross building.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>= </div><div dir=3D"auto">I have a config successor doodled out in lua...</di= v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Warner</div><div dir=3D"aut= o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"> Anyway, this is off-topic for the discussion about rust, other than<br> that LUA is a language that is not affected by many bugs that are<br> typical for programs written in C.<br> <br> Best regards, STefan<br> <br> </blockquote></div></div></div> --0000000000001cc4ae062151a08f--
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