From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Wed Feb 20 17:08:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2D414F9791 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 17:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) Received: from plan-b.pwste.edu.pl (plan-b.pwste.edu.pl [IPv6:2001:678:618::40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "plan-b.pwste.edu.pl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5055589299 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 17:08:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) Received: from bsdondell.lab.pwste.edu.pl ([IPv6:2001:470:71:d47:a5f0:58c1:236e:c4d5]) (authenticated bits=0) by plan-b.pwste.edu.pl (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1KH8PhI041596 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Feb 2019 18:08:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=plan-b.pwste.edu.pl; s=plan-b-mailer; t=1550682506; bh=P0EI53GaKxMzpqqkjYiCab6cdahQnaaSLqPOoodj8pA=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YGcGCuexzeLHWYjWL/IL3g2ks1V+0cenhJ5ygprDYqPC/P/8npQUd0xioedhPm1Lj 5KkUZ8TUUi9ehHsPp+OsudurnKFpUJuJwOlMlqLQ8/tLxxj3hrgZi6nfgyeJRZb3Hk aBAz2MWjsQsl0/lVUQm/rMK++ocqsWRP2AOLnTEdWg7LgAA6WE9jypMf/8RhArQ5bZ WJvTxzBTYE8ggmwd1OP9kSk4qgz9+YWtosszLzDOGV4+d1xZdpR5FMnepTXCwvYro+ mLOb9lpzV72RQeVhIr15JveO0KDIuBEytgGJpbuv3PmjdbLXOs4+6MZNruqCDQyXsh F3pgR/J3mM+tw== X-Authentication-Warning: plan-b.pwste.edu.pl: Host [IPv6:2001:470:71:d47:a5f0:58c1:236e:c4d5] claimed to be bsdondell.lab.pwste.edu.pl Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> From: Marek Zarychta Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl; keydata= mQENBFfi3cMBCADLecMTFXad4uDXqv3eRuB4qJJ8G9tzzFezeRnnwxOsPdytW5ES2z1ibSrR IsiImx6+PTqrAmXpTInxAi7yiZGdSiONRI4CCxKY9d1YFiNYT/2WyNXCekm9x29YeIU7x0JB Llbz0f/9HC+styBIu2H+PY/X98Clzm110CS+n/b9l1AtiGxTiVFj7/uavYAKxH6LNWnbkuc5 v8EVNc7NkEcl5h7Z9X5NEtzDxTOiBIFQ/kOT7LAtkYUPo1lqLeOM2DtWSXTXQgXl0zJI4iP1 OAu4qQYm2nXwq4b2AH9peknelvnt1mpfgDCGSKnhc26q6ibTfMwydp+tvUtQIQYpA6b9ABEB AAG0N01hcmVrIFphcnljaHRhIChQbGFuLWIpIDx6YXJ5Y2h0YW1AcGxhbi1iLnB3c3RlLmVk dS5wbD6JATcEEwEIACEFAlfi4LkCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQHZW8 vIFppoJXdgf8D9X3VRFSNaR9lthSx/+uqas17J3FJKBo1xMQsC2a+44vzNvYJSuPGLLJ+LW2 HPVazjP/BWZJbxOYpliY4zxNRU0YCp0BLIVLibc//yax+mE42FND/+NiIZhqJscl6MLPrSwo sIwXec4XYkldkyqW/xBbBYXoIkBqdKB9j5j42Npy1IV/RizOSdmvTWY27ir8e/yGMR1RLr4F 8P5K3OWTdlGy2H2F/3J8bIPBLG6FpaIyLQw4dHSx8V02PYqDxK1cNo2kAOnU8PnZL/AGuMOH iv3MN1VYL8ehcmpBBsrZGebQJxrjY2/5IaTSgp9xHYT70kshuU6Qb97vk1mOjNZxgbkBDQRX 4t3DAQgA10h6RCXuBLMHxq5B8X/ZIlj9sgLoeyfRdDZEc9rT2KUeUJVHDsbvOFf4/7F1ovWY hJbA6GK/LUZeHHTjnbZcH1uDYQeHly4UOLxeEvhGoz4JhS2C7JzN/uRnwbdOAUbJr8rUj/IY a7gk906rktsc/Ldrxrxh7O6WO0JCh2XO/p4pDfEwwB37g4xHprSab28ECYJ9JMbtA8Sy4M55 g3+GQ28FvSlGnx48OoGXU2BZdc1vZKSQmNOlikB+9/hDX8zdYWVfDaX1TLQ8Ib4+xTUmapza mV/bxIsaZRBw+jFjLQHhTbIMfPEU+4mxFDvTdbKPruKPqVf1ydgMnPZWngowdwARAQABiQEf BBgBCAAJBQJX4t3DAhsMAAoJEB2VvLyBaaaC6qkIAJs9sDPqrqW0bYoRfzY6XjDWQ59p9tJi v8aogxacQNCfAu+WkJ8PNVUtC1dlVcG5NnZ80gXzd1rc8ueIvXlvdanUt/jZd8jbb3gaDbK3 wh1yMCGBl/1fOJTyEGYv1CRojv97KK89KP5+r8x1P1iHcSrunlDNqGxTMydNCwBH23QcOM+m u4spKnJ/s0VRBkw3xoKBZfZza6fTQ4gTpAipjyk7ldOGBV+PvkKATdhK2yLwuWXhKbg/GRlD 1r5P0gxzSqfV4My+KJuc2EDcrqp1y0wOpE1m9iZqCcd0fup5f7HDsYlLWshr7NQl28f6+fQb sylq/j672BHXsdeqf/Ip9V65AQ0EV+OTdwEIAMxnGg7OO/ZAnSwiIiABA9lil1Lfa5BWTH3c l1rz4slz7Gw99G9J3bX3FiPA0vU89dgBZ2k0/UVk5cI5EsMAvwJN4bPwRsfBELQqjCKkVZr4 vUeGyvgQ2jnoK1fcEFOnCRdwFy4EJ6Y/fsZCTj4IfQpkM1W7C3KuSGPcjPDA9XCLDjjp8bbA Q9VgQ68MntAnYxMqK0S3CrHp5Pruvb0x4MfFLNwaKtWK+UnJGPT4umj8PMP6XLsFC3g+SGoP aWoYRDI297ZGx4IBWEaJq181oEC5iUQ6WREti9fNQ3TsAB3Q2CjNlkx1geSczIFJSyOHmyJZ RqAocw1sIuPopvhWtR0AEQEAAYkCRAQYAQgADwUCV+OTdwIbAgUJCWYBgAEpCRAdlby8gWmm gsBdIAQZAQgABgUCV+OTdwAKCRB1n+z//VKNLOETCAC3ggwAAQij4hkIxQFapnRuIVb5vq7D AwJ9+Ld5/zYHOj2Tfu+BPSNGzI2edqboz2w1t55UHEYzYDp2axxIfPrZrXsBV4DsjtGwzVV/ jZ9or5qTaYFDEStRkzL4mRpTyYhl/T7GgWpwOJWOih+cU7RWzjSOxiYMi4QSYlkpDUCcZew0 C3HfcxeFqpeL46zgysHC2ptjINXQ+xR2/F6dbed+l7OsvJAfkBqJoQ/48m+8ly1lbViKck7q gWw143ljaKn2qGIjZdb95zcI/CP4L45SXq8NOweACdx2NfUphLrIMbNCqLkMUJcrnruKfbnp C8OMjFJIqlu+PsW593NcZyOugEAH/0cBsDxlSauSVK4kp8ald26pcBI6igNnIMgjaxMiZBjn eoxBiKAOAO93sPnPr9/64CMMwv1T+0vU2lj8SMKOdHVrB9sW/ICGji5skE85xPEAtUkdAQN+ +c2clotujcaj9lBZKJdncKmSxY0SshEa66H+s76u+2Q3jGK6vOrdxakWYCvh2P0/l52Nd/t2 eazLFgwtk5rbo7O0MSC1GNXUsG07vtZ+zxJXFRx7PQ3ZIn0Y4HqwvXUvqgZ9EHiKy8F+ondz 9IS8/Fs81N5ieujHhSWqbaibapnpeDHvT/FWf8iXfJqWq+F7C8lGShSkmsS5AOhB4TNNH5/m ZzECJa1ql64= Message-ID: <0f1d8227-b6f3-1ac7-9da5-2c1bb90f6f48@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 18:08:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cGALCgVZSISssGqSVIWqfC8Ou2c097Gtx" X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 17:08:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cGALCgVZSISssGqSVIWqfC8Ou2c097Gtx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="2yaCPF0JPVti8d1pU7CgyvOdYx7KmtfEZ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marek Zarychta To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright Message-ID: <0f1d8227-b6f3-1ac7-9da5-2c1bb90f6f48@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> In-Reply-To: <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> --2yaCPF0JPVti8d1pU7CgyvOdYx7KmtfEZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US W dniu 18.02.2019 o=C2=A018:17, Pete Wright pisze: > > > On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W. Grimes < >>> >>> I don't know. I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything new= er >>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the >>> old way >>> is broken and doesn't work. >> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that 5 >> year >> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is in >> stable/12, >> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with >> thete a >> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit).=C2=A0 I know that there= is wip >> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start >> changing >> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right.=C2=A0 = Port >> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code fro= m >> base would be a much more appropriate path. >> >> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of things >> simply on the "5 year old" basis.=C2=A0 Not everyone, and infact few n= ow >> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, >> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 >> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low. > I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a usable > desktop environment on a modern laptop.=C2=A0 there were two issues whi= ch > motivated me to do this: > > 1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online were > using macOS as their primary desktop environment.=C2=A0 when comparing = this > to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it > did explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem.=C2=A0 people= > seemed afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware > support. > > 2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty. > fortunately there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and > amazon - but they were all post haswell systems, rendering them > basically useless from a FreeBSD perspective. > > after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i was > lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on > syncing things up with modern hardware support.=C2=A0 because of that i= 'm > now able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with > FreeBSD.=C2=A0 i use it on my workstations as well as on or server > infrastructure (physical and AWS).=C2=A0 i would consider this a succes= s > for our community as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation > of devs to FreeBSD. > > one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data.=C2=A0 how m= any > people are on haswell era hardware?=C2=A0 i can tell from my experience= the > past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear > seem to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier > to work with while squashing bugs). > > i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support > for systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we > are really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being > effected. > Thank you for reworking laptop hardware support, it has been improved a lot lately. Nowadays almost everything works out of the box. In my case things not working, for a brand new laptop, had patches in the review and available to download from FreeBSD Phabricator. Laptop support is the key to gain popularity of the OS, especially among the younger generation of users. =46rom the other hand, I am not able to boot 12.0 RELEASE on a couple of ~10 years old servers, though I still can actively follow 11-STABLE there. It's not easy to find the cause of the breakage. I'd like to encourage you Developers to MFC as much as we can handle into the STABLE branch to involve even more users into the software testing process. Breaking ABI is unacceptable, but brave MFC would sometimes help the community avoid/reduce a gap between STABLE and CURRENT which accumulates and appears in the final of the release cycle. With best regards, -- Marek Zarychta --2yaCPF0JPVti8d1pU7CgyvOdYx7KmtfEZ-- --cGALCgVZSISssGqSVIWqfC8Ou2c097Gtx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEMOqvKm6wKvS1/ZeCdZ/s//1SjSwFAlxtiYcACgkQdZ/s//1S jSxzeQf/cMWIesVvfG0CrXPH9hUxDfAeQ3BYfYIsvp8dMD+VTrIZ3IYlMQ0+xjNI H1QdqvI/DmLJqAsWgvqkNJ7swKYuUWyDqJYm8cBRs5rOJ8Xw0KzCs+azyzkLAjVo Qu0xO1i2KcNyIOrBs/VEsqBrKYcq9i3APUQoUDiZ0qqi+Q1TbVG6pjZPsNEkUsOK 1Xc66P3ckvbyGbAc+9Tz0eUlUb6yKdELeJZAsLrx+fGrUW9JfE1lsxU+cYQpIg8T D4u9TQn+XZwyp9qd9DSv42x+5fatyfIkmxM0TxM+dseSMIw9hdbTXN3h+h7YMR4L bklQ2DbUXpsHVCINGyZ7qk1Ug0vJyA== =lGpQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cGALCgVZSISssGqSVIWqfC8Ou2c097Gtx--