From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 30 10:33:00 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4E51065680 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:33:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3737B8FC1B for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:32:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6UAWdVo030885; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:32:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n6UAWdFG030884; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:32:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200907301032.n6UAWdFG030884@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, emailrob@emailrob.com In-Reply-To: <4A70AF55.3060104@emailrob.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:32:55 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: [ fbsd_chat ] Re: sh(1) documentation_set X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, emailrob@emailrob.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:33:00 -0000 spellberg_robert wrote: > this gets back to the question i asked originally [ see foot_note [e] ]: > > from where does one obtain the posix spec ? > is it down_loadable ? You can read it online or download it from the website of The Open Group: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/ Note that IEEE Std 1003.1 is what often is called "POSIX", and there is also SUS (Single UNIX specification) which used to be the same as POSIX, but AFAIK it wasn't updated since 2001, so I think SUS is obsolete in this context. > [ as long as i am thinking about it, permit me to think "aloud". > > an idea that i had over the week_end was this: > > consider grep(1). > there is "grep" and there is "grep -E". > > suppose sh(1) had an option. > without the option, it defaults to being posix_compliant > [ for an appropriate definition of "compliant" ]. If you need a feature-rich, configurable shell, I suggest you install zsh (my favourite) or bash from the ports collection. In fact, zsh does support several emulation modes which are enabled with the "emulate {zsh|sh|ksh|csh}" command, and default to the name under which the shell was called. The shell also support several options for finetuning the level of POSIX-conformance vs. advanced features. The bourne shell /bin/sh is a very important and critical part of the operating system, therefore it is preferable to keep it as simple as possible and not bloat it with convenience features that are already handled by third- party shells available from the ports collection. > i would --not-- try to create the "be_all and end_all" scripting language. > i --would-- have it do c_precedence integer arithmetic and bit_pattern operations. Our /bin/sh already does that. Admittedly, the documentation is a little weak in this regard. $ echo $(( 64 | 1 << 8 )) 320 > here's one. > put --all-- of the > "built_in" commands, functions and whatnots > into --one-- list. There's a builtin(1) manual page. It just lists the commands aphabetically and indicates which of them is available as builtin in sh or csh, and/or as an external command. For a detailed description of the commands it refers to the appropriate manual pages. I think this is useful. > here's another one. > the re_direction operators are poorly described FWIW, I think the description is terse, but complete. If you're new to this, I agree that the description might be _too_ terse, but again, the manual page is not intended to be a tutorial. In this case you should refer to third- party material such as a good book on shell scripting. > further, they are described in two places. There's only one section called "Redirections". Of course, they are mentioned in other sections, too, because they affect other features, too. For example, redirections and pipes interact with each other, so they are mentioned in the section about pipes, too. > still further, the two lists of operators in those two places are different. > each concept should be defined in only one place. There is only one definition (section "Redirections"). The section "Lexical Structure" only lists the tokens that are used for redirections, and specifically says that "their meaning is discussed later". > oh, one other thing. > this one really sticks_in_my_craw. > in --my-- copies, > i --am-- going to fix that whole "shell procedure" thing The man page mentions this word only in one place, and that place specifically says that this term is obsolete. I think it's good to keep that remark, so people who come from other shells and grep the manual page for this term will find it. > in conclusion, > i suspect that most of the readers of this post are --so-- accustomed to sh(1) that > when they read the man_page, > they see what they want to see, not what is, actually, written there. > because they have experience, they "read between the lines". > they "know" what the author "meant". > > this is a human characteristic. That's true. It's also true that many developers (especially in the open source / free software world) much prefer to write code instead of good documentation. But I can only repeat: If you write up a diff or a new section for the manual page, feel free to submit it (send-pr). Improvements are always welcome. > read the man_pages for csh(1) and sh(1), in that order. > you tell me which is better organized. > you tell me which has clearer explanations. Personally I feel that the csh(1) manual page is much too long and contains too many things that do not belong into a manual page. > my first shell was a flavor of bourne. > > now, here's the rub. > almost immediately, i discovered csh(1). > in addition to its more__c_like__syntax, it had "alias" and "history". > at that time, bourne lacked these. > to this day, i have used csh(1) for interactive use. > i began to write my scripts in csh. > i like to think that i "understand" it [ of course, i --could-- be wrong ]. When I first started using UNIX, the default shell was csh (tcsh to be exact), so I used that, and I even wrote a few scripts in it. I quickly discovered that csh syntax was awkward and not really like C (at that time, I was a C programmer for several years already). So I switched over to bourne shell (/bin/sh) for scripts. I think that the bourne shell syntax is much more consistent and less error-prone. But I continued using tcsh for interactive use. Finally a coworker convinced me to give zsh a try. It had all the features of tcsh that I used, but the sane syntax of a bourne shell. The big advantage is that I can copy&paste parts from shell scripts to the command line, try them out interactively, modify them, try again, then paste them back into the script. The command line editor of zsh is very advanced so you can easily edit multi-line constructs (and I mean multi-line, not just long lines), unlike tcsh. Also, tab-completion works much better, the configuration of the prompt is more flexible, and so on. And last but not least, it is easy to write your own extension modules. It took me a very short time to get used to it, and I would *never* go back to any shell that claims to have C-like syntax. I even put a statically linked zsh binary in /rescue (my port update procedure does this automatically) because it's so convenient. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."         -- Mother Teresa