From owner-freebsd-doc Fri Mar 20 03:32:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09210 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09202 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA21444; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:32:08 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980320223201.63694@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:32:02 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Studded Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer References: <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net>; from Studded on Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 01:25:46PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 01:25:46PM -0800, Studded wrote: > Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies > list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond > directly to me, or to this list as appropriate. This threat is unwelcome. If you are saying that you intend to make this as difficult as you possibly can, to the point of acting wilfully against the purposes of a mailing list, then I suggest you have picked the wrong person, the wrong list, and the wrong day. You did your best to stop the newbies from having their own list, and now you want to make use of them for your own convenience at the risk of destroying their enclave. Jump in as you plan and you will only prove their suspicion, that newbies will never be granted a place free from patronising scrutiny, somewhere they can relax and learn to be self-sufficient and start helping each other to depend on the resources you want to give them, instead of depending on you. If you sit back and wait a little while, you'll see that a lot of good can and will be done for the documentation project if and only if you stop trying to tell me and everyone else what they want. Keep going the way you are and you'll obtain some short-term advantage by stealth but spoil every chance for long-term benefit to everyone. We all have an interest in this working out, even you. Before you can even contemplate writing well for an audience, you have to know and understand them. Give them a chance to speak freely, listen, and learn, show genuine respect for who and what they are, and give them a chance to be what they are on their own terms. Find out what they *can* do and *will* do on their own, and gradually build from there. Or go do some coding or something that doesn't hurt people. You've got a so much else to offer, I don't understand why you want to spoil what others are trying to do for themselves when they don't need your help. > > Because people like you will go in and talk to them the way you have talked > > to me in the past. That is not the best way to obtain cooperation, as you > > must have discovered by now. If newbies can't have a space that is their > > own, where they don't have to suffer being someone's underling, > > Where did you get the idea that I want to make the people on -newbies > underlings? I never said you want to, but you know so much it's automatic. And I don't think you and a couple of others realise how abrasive and overbearing you come across at times. It's taken me two miserable years to have the courage to say Doug, you make me feel like giving up when you talk like that. You make me feel afraid to admit when I can't understand some manual, or just pretend I've lost interest to save face. I'm only standing up to you now because I feel like you've pushed me into a corner, there's no other options left, and nothing more to lose. We can't wait two years for the others to start feeling happy about learning by their own steam. In the long term we cannot keep producing documentation that is designed for dependent learners. At the moment, they are the only kind we're producing because they are the only kind that we love to hate to accommodate. I'm willing to fight tooth and nail for that to change, but without your bombastic interference it wouldn't be a fight at all. It's what newbies want now and long term it's what everyone wants, even you Doug. Think about it. > Are you actually telling me that I can listen on -newbies but you don't > want me to talk? Yes indeed I am, the same as we newbies do on -hackers, -chat, -ports... Unless you'd like the whole system to be changed immediately. We're talking about having newbies working together learning how to learn independently, using documentation, encouraging each other to enjoy doing so, in a non-threatening environment of their own, away from perceived risk of scrutiny and evaluation. If no-one else believes that this is a serious threat to the aims of the documentation project, I suggest we continue this conversation privately. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message