From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 5:14:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337737B400 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 05:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B73543E65 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 05:14:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g84CEK183039; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 05:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200209041214.g84CEK183039@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Neal E. Westfall" Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 05:14:15 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neal E Westfall writes: > On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> "Desperate" perhaps. "Misunderstood" definately. "Naughty" I refrain >> >> from using, it has too many sexual contexts that are inappropriate. ;) >> > >> > Rodney King was a fleeing felon in voilation of parole. >> >> I don't care what he was. There was zero excuse for that display >> of police brutality. There's zero excuse for any of it actually, >> and it's a prime reason I despise authority and rebel against any >> sort of organized policing. Who watches the watchers? > > Hmmm...On what basis does anyone say that there is "zero excuse" for > such and such action? Moral condemnations flow forth, but on what > basis? Personal history. When I was 15, my best friend was shot in cold blood by LAPD for "resembling" some guy who had offed a 7-11. The guy was one of the smartest people I've ever known, and most definately not a criminal. The LAPD has a very long history of using excessive force when dealing with anyone (criminal or otherwise), especially for those of us that grew up here. Granted, I was kind of traumatized and this may not be a basis everyone can accept. But I do, and at the moment that's all that counts. > You and Terry really are more alike than you may know. Believe me I know. ;) > However, given your rejection of authority, who are you to condemn > police brutality? Someone who's lost a friend to it. > All you are doing is confirming that "there is none righteous, not > even one, there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for > God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless, there > is none who does good, not even one..." (Romans 3:10-12) You really > should read the entire passage, it gets even more to the point, such > that, "every mouth may be closed and all the world may become > accountable to God". Well, two things before I respond. First, when any biblical prose comes into debate, unless the people are very focused on Truth, it will disintegrate into exact semantic meanings of words written over a couple thousand years ago. This is not a place to learn truth, but it is a place to steep in righteousness. ;) Secondly, the bible has many layers of meaning. Some of the layers are unavailable to people without the proper experiential data to interpret them. (This means, if you are a Christan, you read the Bible and then ask God what it means, not your pastor or some bible geek). Ok, now responding to this. I'm familiar enough with the passage. The entire chapter has a theme which is consistently misinterpreted to mean that "all are sinners". It is a negativity pointed to by many other religions as "why Christianity is self-destructive". After all, if you can never be a non-sinner, then what's the use in not sinning? In fact, there's another meaning here, and that has to do with what "righteousness" is and why it's useless to be in that state (I do it above). It's not saying "you are a sinner" per se. It's explaining the uselessness of righteous behavior. This behavior has to be overcome as a stepping stone on the path to being one with the universe. Zen masters merely try to shut off your brain for you, if you can do that then righteous behavior will shut off at the same time. > Who watches the watchers indeed! Speaking, of course, without reference or support of any authority, higher power or otherwise. ;) > I really think you are deceiving yourself if you think you are > not also deeply entrenched in assumptions. I don't think that I am not deeply entrenched in assumptions, how else could I be communicating here? ;) But, alas, even that is an assumption. > Everybody has them, and they are very important. The trick is in > adopting the *right* assumptions. Are you being righteous? ;) How do you know which assumptions are the right ones? "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". > The question to be asked is what presuppositions are > transcendentally necessary for experience to be meaningful at all. > The reason that both of you are so difficult to argue with is that > neither of you seem to think anything is meaningful. I'll admit, to me this is all a dream. Controlled folly this all is. Getting Terry to admit that would be...difficult. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message