From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 8 06:40:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEE616A4CF for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:40:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx4.mail.national-net.com (mx4.mail.national-net.com [66.115.129.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EBA43D2D for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:40:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from seth.kingry@natnet.com) Received: from [192.168.1.197] (chicago.national-net.com [::ffff:66.115.130.250]) (AUTH: LOGIN seth.kingry@natnet.com) by mx4.mail.national-net.com with esmtp; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:40:18 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.5]); Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:40:18 -0500 From: "Seth Kingry" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 01:40:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050208034855.D211E43D45@mx1.FreeBSD.org> thread-index: AcUNkTda3VTjzmyGReqIG5o4BAsTvQAFcFeQ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Subject: RE: The case for FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 06:40:20 -0000 Working for a large hosting company, one of the things we enjoy about FBSD is that all we need to install/fix a system is three floppy disks (two on a 4.X system). Most of our servers do not have CD-ROMs, nor would they, as it is an added expense to the servers that would rarely be used. The current sysinstall allows us to script an install of FBSD to the point where all we have to do is enter an admin password and IP/Hostname, and the rest is done in the background. I can understand how having sysinstall revamped to something more along the lines of an installer from one of the 'fancier' distros of Linux (Redhat, Mandrake, etc.) in order to get FBSD 'out to the masses;, but I don't think that is the purpose behind this OS. I see this OS as a stable incarnation of UNIX, tried and true, made for admins. We understand that and that is why we use it as one of our default OS's (Our others are Debian and Slack, both of which don't have pretty installers either.) Just my two cents. --Seth Kingry, NatNet-- -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of supraexpress@globaleyes.net Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:49 PM To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The case for FreeBSD One of the main "stumbling blocks" to using FreeBSD is the installation process. I have had "lots of fun" (not!) with NetBSD's line-mode/shell-script "installer" and confusing companion installation instructions, in the past; I only tried OpenBSD once and don't remember anything about its installation process, but I seem to recall that it was similar to NetBSD's; FreeBSD's 'DOS-like menu' system is a travisty and IS PROBABLY THE ONE THING THAT TURNS OFF MORE PROSPECTIVE FBSD USERS THAN ANYTHING ELSE - I know - I have heard! Besides, it is REALLY EASY to get lost in the FBSD installer "menu system", and not that hard to get caught in a "control loop"; this is not to say that the current FBSD installer is a piece of junk - I give kudos to its developers, but IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON, and this is the ONE thing that gets compared to with Linux "installers" as well as Winchoke, probably more than anything else, so if FreeBSD is going to be more appealing to "the masses", it needs a completely new installation process (note: I don't really care for Solaris' "wizard process" - though it is not TOO bad, and I am not trying to advocate a "wizard process" that mirrors others). I offer the following suggestions for cogitation and realize that some of MY choices may not be "the best", but here goes anyhow: a) redesign the "installer" as a graphical menu system with pull-down options, organized as a linear heirarchy where there is NO possibility of getting lost or of winding up in a "control loop", and the progression is clearly visible; real graphical images of major processes/steps and "systems/major applications" should be provided; THIS installer should begin with THREE, and only THREE options: "user workstation", "server", or "(expert) choice of workstation/server setups" b) design an "installation wizard", in line with contemporary systems, that does nothing but install a "canned workstation environment" based on OpenOffice plus Gnome (or KDE) - that's IT - NOTHING ELSE; Make sure that a more modern graphical menu is used where sample images of Gnome (or KDE) are presented, and do NOT install the entire Gnome (or KDE) "suite"; THIS will appeal to the MILLIONS who have been brainwashed by Redmond (or Apple?) into believing that there is only ONE "computing environment" of any use or interest, AND IT WILL GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT, even if it IS FreeBSD; this would be like a pseudo-Mac-X (whatever); this will also appeal to those who don't really care about Unix or FreeBSD as a "server", but really want a "desktop environment" a basic client-only, outbound-only-allowing firewall MUST BE installed and activated (which will require some simple choices about DHCP or assigned, static IP addreses); "ports" could be included as an option, but would be better left to the "expert" wizard c) design an "installation wizard" that installs a "server system with NO desktop installation" which provides some "canned" server "types" (such as "mail server", "web server", ...) that choose the newest versions of server applications (such as Apache2 versus Apache1; PHP5 versus PHP4) as the "defaults", and pull-down menus for changing versions (such as one pull-down for PHP that lists all of the available PHP "main" packages, and possibly another pull-down that lists all of the available PHP "sub-packages"), or altering the application "mix" d) design an "installation menu system" which provides ALL of the choices for ALL of the available functions and services in a well ordered, graphical, linear, hierarchy with sample images/snapshots and pull-down menus to make choices easier to make, without having to go into and out of many levels as the current installer does It would probably help if a "special design team" (project) were created for this, with calls to anyone/everyone to join in, unless - of course - that there just so happens to be a group of talented people who WANT to do all of this on their own ;) If some truly talented and adventurous people were to look at the installation process as an adventure in graphical layers where mousing over a box or image would open up a new sub-layer (to the side, or even BETTER, to wherever the user places their mouse or clicks on the background, or shouts at the monitor (we REALLY need to get some of the Hitchhiker's Guide into this process!), where small graphical images of options or related packages could be displayed so that the "installer" acted like a well designed "flowing image overlay system", THEN the FreeBSD installation process would be dynamite - literally! There are "circular menus" (ala one Firebird extension), layered pie-chart diagrams of the filesystem with size information (such as KDE's "filelight") where mousing over one of the concentric circles pops up an "info box", while clicking on one of them traverses down the filesystem path and creates a new set of concentric circles of lower level directories, and the exhilarating 3D-Desktop as examples of unique, "futuristic", artistic, free flowing graphical "systems" that could lead to interesting ideas for the above mentioned "graphical installation system". Granted, there are MANY, MANY issues to be worked out, and some of these suggestions will have to be modified - of course. There might even need to be a two-tiered system where the first tier could be a basic graphical system that doesn't need special graphics cards to perform, and the second tier that could install X, or something close enough, and then provide the full blown "graphical installation" system. If there are enough drivers available to the "installation system" to determine enough about a system "monitor", then hopefully this could be an automated facility (eg; install a minimal X-system with just enough to do the necessary graphics, and later install the entire X-system where needed). OK - let the "flame wars" begin. Whatever comes out of this, the FreeBSD "installer" badly needs a facelift. _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005