From owner-svn-src-all@freebsd.org Sat Sep 5 06:00:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-all@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6BD3E1051 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 06:00:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevin.bowling@kev009.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb44.google.com (mail-yb1-xb44.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bk3mp3T4Qz3yY2 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 06:00:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevin.bowling@kev009.com) Received: by mail-yb1-xb44.google.com with SMTP id h206so5860485ybc.11 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 23:00:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wnrxLNSrKdeQ1Nfm998YqL6aMYMa7azpKgnHQSzzRpc=; b=qt4H49AU7f4zrRhhECE7r8XC8eD4+SWuewkcxw7M870OIQz6AqCXvm0PKRiAXFbDZw 3vkL4KiZVN2vCM3HhuuyHIUUcp4AgJAxr4ozhou3LZ9+7vLFMzlL5JHF4ILDdx1I+XMD w22k89sEJwbUQhdDFR+8qvOa6fykMlgo0n854= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wnrxLNSrKdeQ1Nfm998YqL6aMYMa7azpKgnHQSzzRpc=; b=fMV14TvQl+yhiKYMaVau2/wj8nRSm/ZzXdVIbjOQEdJbblFIp1D5ojUqOF6FmN0Haj 0lw6crK9StvTR8toz6agMqHW1TiErc18U1Y43Qrr1f1w1Synfxnyw6QGUWsRjhXzXYGd QhcCkch2ZsSKr/cnyomKnp+sBW3q6lNM/I3XtbnOheWjT57IZ7TmIHdrwxTe/v0GZm1T 88nILfCMKsszBNqktX8T/9YQJQZrglmmGlwwZT9pa+X4KWAMncyqZ26rEQrVR9rbTZuF cPRrwspEmYD1aI2ayX8ZQlrJGHTIJJ8s5dMTCecspKQlBE53zsOdkPCAEjEkOf/aNlyk BUdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tmrC35UdsTRD9wJ5pjdkOTkTEJ6BeTWS5AvB/MfNQgrn9QbUh tWFlVsjEFO06Y3GOTo5tlEdLtTuhiV1Q9g1BEJ8hyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoQ6gRFHr5zp7wNKqp/MJmfadN6x3NAtYz3CfMNHdgFJErQdqIhlDnpjFsRAklaWJ/tEf2kHmmfUlaOlVe+9o= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3403:: with SMTP id b3mr5782278yba.455.1599285625374; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 23:00:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202009012119.081LJERb018106@repo.freebsd.org> <95844C00-D10A-456D-AD29-DF572043074F@fh-muenster.de> <20200902020507.GA38274@FreeBSD.org> <20200902180626.GA88595@FreeBSD.org> <6124a908-25a5-e023-16da-7963ba229b7f@FreeBSD.org> <08636D5E-AA07-4AE7-B5AC-656B08CF564B@fh-muenster.de> <20200903024226.GA54078@FreeBSD.org> <60ea593f-8258-e30d-b897-f162168b44d3@cs.duke.edu> <20200905010510.GA26297@lonesome.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Bowling Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 23:00:14 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r365071 - in head/sys: net net/altq net/route net80211 netgraph netgraph/atm netgraph/atm/ccatm netgraph/atm/sscfu netgraph/atm/sscop netgraph/atm/uni netgraph/bluetooth/common netgraph... To: Warner Losh Cc: Mark Linimon , Andrew Gallatin , Alexey Dokuchaev , Michael Tuexen , Pedro Giffuni , Mateusz Guzik , src-committers , svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bk3mp3T4Qz3yY2 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none (invalid DKIM record) header.d=kev009.com header.s=google header.b=qt4H49AU; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kevin.bowling@kev009.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kevin.bowling@kev009.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.73 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.055]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[svn-src-all@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kev009.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[kev009.com:~]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.379]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b44:from]; R_DKIM_PERMFAIL(0.00)[kev009.com:s=google]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[svn-src-all] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 07:43:40 +0000 X-BeenThere: svn-src-all@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: "SVN commit messages for the entire src tree \(except for " user" and " projects" \)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 06:00:27 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:30 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 11:24 PM Kevin Bowling wr= ote: >> >> It's happening right now, and a few times a year at minimum from my >> memory. > > > Can I get a pointer? >From recent lossy memory, intel networking drivers (multiply), and the TCP stacks which are not very conforming. If click differential in phab and insert the query "style" you can see a lot of patches to fix things incrementally, as well as people commenting about it in review (usually respectfully as part of other review), or asking for people to break style changes out of behavior changes. > Warner > >> Any time someone proposes a formatter they are thrown shade, >> so the lack of progress there isn't surprising since the current >> culture would require a flame proof suit to make progress. It's kind >> of tautological that the status quo doesn't bother long time >> contributors due to selection bias, and doesn't mean for instance the >> lack of modern tooling is not off putting to younger developers that >> learn new tools and wonder why >> >> we remain in the stone age. An example >> we are finally overcoming is the git migration. Must we drag our feet >> every opportunity given to modernize ourselves from the other popular >> open source OS, or can we make obvious decisions to get ahead of them? >> I think if you ask anyone under the age of 30 you will get a pretty >> unanimous desire for automatic formatting. > > > Why strictly enforce anything is my point? It's one more thing to bounce = a commit for an issue that's about 30th on the list of problems. Why put a= ny energy at all into this when there is all cost and no benefit. Is this a common opinion? If people are this relaxed about it then I agree with you. > Warner > > Warner > >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:48 PM Warner Losh wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 9:11 PM Kevin Bowling = wrote: >> >> >> >> I disagree that the problem is intractable. It's just a decision and >> >> it has a one time cost with long term benefits like paying off a high >> >> interest loan. The intractability opinion seemed justifiable for a >> >> long time but it's been proven false by other communities, >> >> particularly Go and Rust and there is nothing syntactically special >> >> about these languages that enable this; it's just a decision to make >> >> the style fit an extant formatter. An arbitrary formater may leave a >> >> little bit of annoyance to each person's taste, but that is a tiny >> >> drop in the bucket compared to never having to discuss and especially >> >> correct (which may /seem/ helpful but is pretty offputting to >> >> newcomers). A tool does it, and it takes the wind out of any passive >> >> aggressive bike shed opportunities from either maintainer or >> >> contributor. It sucks that downstreams have to fall in line, but tha= t >> >> doesn't stop progress on any other major changes in FreeBSD. >> > >> > >> > How often are there really such bikesheds these days? I've seen no evi= dence of them in the hundreds of phab reviews I've seen. It is the ghost of= the past when 10 or 15 years ago it was a big deal. Why bother creating ye= t another barrier to commits because we used to suck, but now have barely a= rumble of bad behavior around it... >> > >> > Warner >> > >> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:57 PM Warner Losh wrote: >> >> > >> >> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 7:05 PM Mark Linimon wr= ote: >> >> > >> >> > > On Fri, Sep 04, 2020 at 02:15:04PM -0400, Andrew Gallatin wrote: >> >> > > > and I also anticipate it will cause problems with MFCs >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > And existing PRs and DRs. >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > Or we could just not bother we these changes at all. It's a pipe dr= eam we >> >> > will ever be style(9) compliant in all our code, or that we can mag= ically >> >> > have a tool to enforce in new commits. We have better things to wor= ry >> >> > about. We should continue to ignore this non problem and for new us= ers >> >> > point them at the 95% correct format thing to run their submitted p= atches >> >> > if they submit something too far out of whack. >> >> > >> >> > The last sweep deleted a boatload of blank lines that were in there= on >> >> > purpose. Not worth adding them back, but still annoying to no real = benefit. >> >> > >> >> > I just don't see the benefits at all of doing anything here. The fe= w >> >> > reviews that I've seen mention it seem to be the right level of eff= ort. >> >> > >> >> > Warner >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > svn-src-head@freebsd.org mailing list >> >> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/svn-src-head >> >> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "svn-src-head-unsubscribe@freebsd.= org"