Date: 01 Jun 2003 17:55:57 -0700 From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) To: Tim Vanderhoek <t.vanderhoek@utoronto.ca> Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar Message-ID: <hxd6hxnvqa.6hx@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <qvsmqvnjtq.mqv@localhost.localdomain> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise>
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Tim Vanderhoek <t.vanderhoek@utoronto.ca> writes:
> On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 04:13:29AM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote:
> [...]
> > encountering this thread. I also spoke with a few people today, two of
> > which had spent a year in the US. They all agreed that the meaning of
> > "In case X, do Y" (that's what I asked, verbatim) was "If X occurs, do
> > Y", so it's not just me.
I've been speaking English for 50 years and that's exactly what it means
to me. There's nothing precautionary about it (i.e., regarding X),
except to the extent that one might decide that doing X is not a good
thing, quite apart from the advice which the sentence is offering about
doing Y when X occurs (i.e., in the case X).
> I would accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic
> and semantically equivalent:
>
> (1) In case there is an explosion, call the police.
>
> (2) In case of an explosion, call the police.
I agree 100%, regardless of any "seeding" of the conversation, based on
my (NW USA) experience, not grammar education.
> But I would also accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic
> and semantically equivalent:
>
> (3) In case there is an explosion, call the police.
>
> (4) Call the police in case there is an explosion.
Interesting. I strongly disagree. Sentence (4) tells me to call the
police now to prepare for an explosion which only MIGHT happen. I guess
that's called an "idiomatic" usage, because it doesn't seem right when
one analyzes it. Here's a similar example in which the idiomatic meaning
is more obvious: "Wear your jacket, in case it gets windy." (Now THAT'S
a precaution.) In (4), that reading is so absurd that I know the writer
must have meant (3) (or (5), below).
Changing the "in case" in (4) removes the just-referenced idiom.
Call the police in a case where there is an explosion.
Call the police in a case of explosion.
Call the police in the case of an explosion.
Call the police in cases of explosion.
(5) Call the police if there is an explosion.
Call the police if an explosion occurs.
Call the police after an explosion occurs.
Call the police when an explosion occurs.
(The last three have quite different meanings, but are close enough for
anyone but a "stickler".)
> English is kinda neat in that you can mix the phrases around in almost
> any order and still have a semantically equivalent sentence:
But it's less neat if you don't know the exceptions, especially as they
differ from person to person.
> (6) Keep a fire extinguisher by the stove in case there is a fire.
> (7) In case there is a fire, keep a fire extinguisher by the stove.
Sorry; those are not even close to equivalent, as I understand them.
The second is only tolerable since you know the wrongness of it's
actual meaning.
Consider these sentences (syntactically similar to yours):
(6b) Whack your beard with your hand,
in case there is a fire in your beard.
(7b) In case there is a fire in your beard,
whack your beard with your hand.
Now in these, I put the "wrongness" in the opposite sentence, but I
think the semantic difference is clear; the second is quite reasonable,
while the first makes me laugh. I see someone whacking their beard as a
precautionary measure.
> (11) *Give her the Heimlech meaneouver in case she starts choking.
> (12) *Give her the Heimlech maneouver in case of her choking.
We differ again. The first makes me laugh again. The second imparts
the reasonable meaning, though it sounds like less-than-perfect grammar.
> In case that my head starts to hurt, I will now stop thinking and
> writing about this. ;-)
I could feel your pain, so I didn't consider your last set of examples.
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