From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 12 09:09:40 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B58216A405 for ; Sat, 12 May 2007 09:09:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michel@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF4F13C43E for ; Sat, 12 May 2007 09:09:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michel@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.1]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.13.8/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id l4C99bIx065888 ; Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Ids: 165 Received: by parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (Postfix, from userid 10096) id 92459BF6A0; Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.41]) by parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1400BF60E; Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (Postfix, from userid 2005) id 7E1E688; Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:35 +0200 From: Michel Talon To: Mike Meyer Message-ID: <20070512090935.GA13929@lpthe.jussieu.fr> References: <20070512004209.GA12218@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <17989.8202.624522.136573@bhuda.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17989.8202.624522.136573@bhuda.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.165]); Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.7/3229/Sat May 12 07:59:29 2007 on shiva.jussieu.fr X-Virus-Status: Clean X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 46458451.003 on shiva.jussieu.fr : j-chkmail score : X : 0/50 0 0.504 -> 1 X-Miltered: at shiva.jussieu.fr with ID 46458451.003 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 12 May 2007 12:01:08 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DPS Initial Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 09:09:40 -0000 On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:01:46PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote: > In <20070512004209.GA12218@lpthe.jussieu.fr>, Michel Talon typed: > > One of the most obvious being that the sqlite database can be edited > > as easily as a pure textfile using the sqlite3 program > > Huh? They can? With a pure textfile, if vi is busted, I can use ed. If > ed is also busted, I can use sed. What do I use on an sqlite database > if sqlite3 is busted? Answering both you and Bill Moran: - first i don't suppose sqlite3 is busted, since i suppose it is in the base system and it works by definition. Your hypothesis is alike, what do i do to edit my config files if vi and ed are busted? Moreover if sqlite3 gets really busted i can import a copy and hope it works, it requires very few libraries and other files, not much more than vi, plus the sqlite3 library, of course. The combined size of sqlite3 and libsqlite3 is less than 400k. - second, if i am sql allergic, it takes one command to export the table to a straight file, each row in a line, each field separated by | or anything else of my choice. Exactly the same tools that you have mentioned allow to edit this file, and then one command allows to load it in the database. - so what are the benefits? They are that non sql impaired people can make good use of the power of sql queries to simplify their work. And this without reducing the possibilities of sql impaired people. Moreover one can use general tools like graphic sql tools to present the contents of the database to the end user in a pleasant way if it is desired. And finally it may be that the transactional properties of sqlite can be used to gain better reliablity. - is the cost of including sqlite in the base system so high that the above benefits are insufficient? Personnally i don't know, but i think some discussion is at least in order. - and finally to answer one of Bill's critiques, why sqlite rather than a Berkeley database? Precisely because sqlite offer a lot of facilities that Berkeley db doesn't offer, such as export and import to and from csv files, auto documentation of the table contents, while it requires in fact programming and knowledge of the api of the database to hand edit the Berkeley db. Anyways, i have read that Marc Espie is envisioning using sqlite3 for OpenBSD package system, and that he is very satisfied with what he has seen up to now. If this enters production, perhaps this will confer BSD legitimity to such practices ... Seriously, the FreeBSD package system is in great need of a profound overhaul, pretending it works well is complete denial of reality. I hope that young people working on summer code projects will infuse *new* ideas, and not spend their vacations polishing inadequate tools. -- Michel TALON