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Date:      Fri, 8 Mar 2013 12:47:51 -0500
From:      Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
To:        Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Cc:        Tijl Coosemans <tijl@coosemans.org>, freebsd-toolchain@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: c89 broken on head?
Message-ID:  <CAF6rxg=eRnGKE5ec2rpFWwuB7Q6%2BpStBuPngF0GhROUH%2Beb47g@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <717866F5-8CF6-4E2F-A1C4-BFC894D4D680@bsdimp.com>
References:  <5138CD6B.2050309@coosemans.org> <5138EA4C.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <5138F6EF.6020203@coosemans.org> <51390682.3020703@FreeBSD.org> <48120A0D-8A96-4D62-9C17-AE40E1DEF026@bsdimp.com> <51391CC1.5050200@coosemans.org> <CAF6rxg=TdfXkkDd7CCnQdo0qEb7kLjh0YLiwnZgb6VL5Q_uCzQ@mail.gmail.com> <717866F5-8CF6-4E2F-A1C4-BFC894D4D680@bsdimp.com>

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On 8 March 2013 12:40, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Eitan Adler wrote:
>
>> On 7 March 2013 18:03, Tijl Coosemans <tijl@coosemans.org> wrote:
>>> On 2013-03-07 22:36, Warner Losh wrote:
>>>> On Mar 7, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Dimitry Andric wrote:
>>>>> On 2013-03-07 21:22, Tijl Coosemans wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Because it's the practical thing to do? Old code/makefiles can't pos=
sibly
>>>>>> be expected to know about compilers of the future, while new code ca=
n be
>>>>>> expected to add -std=3Dc11.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure I buy that argument; if it were so, we should default t=
o
>>>>> K&R C instead, since "old code" (for some arbitrary definition of "ol=
d")
>>>>> could never have been expected to know about gcc defaulting to gnu89.
>>>
>>> My argument was to be practical, i.e. don't change what doesn't have to
>>> change.
>>>
>>>> -std=3Dc11 is defintely too new, but maybe c89 is too old.
>>>>
>>>> I thought the c89 program actually was mandated by POSIX, no?
>>>
>>> Both were part of POSIX. c89 was a strict ISO c89 compiler, while cc wa=
s
>>> c89, but could additionally accept "an unspecified dialect of the C
>>> language". http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcu/cc.html
>>>
>>> So, if practicality isn't a good enough argument, maybe POSIX complianc=
e
>>> is?
>>
>> cc is marked as "LEGACY" which is described as optional ("need not be
>> provided").
>> However, I would not be surprised if a non-zero number of ports depend
>> on cc existing.
>>
>> If we are to remove it or change it, I would like to see that preceded
>> by an exp-run.
>
> Removing cc is an exceedingly stupid idea. I think it should be preceded =
by the heat death of the universe. It will cause nothing but gratuitous pai=
n and suffering for our users and gain us absolutely nothing in return. Do =
not even think about removing 'cc,' let alone trying to do an exp-run. The =
idea is a non-starter and you'd be wasting your time.

My comment included the proposal to modify it to use c99 (or c11).
That change must also be preceded by an exp-run.  I am not making the
proposals, only responding to them.

I agree that removing cc buys us nothing.


--=20
Eitan Adler



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