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Date:      Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:06:24 -0600
From:      Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
To:        Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>, chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Market share and platform support 
Message-ID:  <4.2.0.58.19990909213518.046fe100@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <199909091531.KAA27521@free.pcs>
References:  <local.mail.freebsd-chat/19990909090916$318e@fish.pcs> <local.mail.freebsd-chat/Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:52:00 MDT." <local.mail.freebsd-chat/4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost>

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At 10:31 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote:

>Sorry to jump in here, but an objective (outside) opinion might
>be useful:

They generally are.

>Brett, do your research.  This has already been done, so there is
>already a precedent.  CheapBytes sells a FreeBSD distribution, you
>don't see WC jumping all over them?  Pacific HiTech too, although
>I think they are now part of (or affilated with) WC.

But these are low-key and not major enhancements. What happens
when someone does a Red Hat or Caldera on FreeBSD?

>I can't exactly see what you're after here.  The license on the FreeBSD
>code proper says nothing about WC.

True. But they control resources that are vital to the project.

>   The fact that they employ several committers is irrelevant.

No, it's not. If they create code for FreeBSD on company time,
then WC owns that code. 

>What it sounds like you're asking is:
>
>   1. "I want to go off and do my own distribution based on FreeBSD".
>   2. "I want assurance that FreeBSD Inc. will not undercut or discredit me".
>
>As far as I can tell, you don't need permission to do #1.  

Maybe, maybe not. Who owns the FreeBSD trademark? Do I need permission to
use it? If so, can Walnut Creek influence whether or not I can use it?

>#2 isn't 
>reasonable.  Anybody who gives you a blanket assurance like that is
>either lying or needs their head examined.  Your business will succeed
>or fail on its own merits.  It strongly smells to me like you're fishing
>for a "non-compete" agreeement.

No, I'm fishing -- no, asking -- for a "non-sabotage" agreement. Fair 
competition isn't a problem; it spurs all the competitors to do better. 
Unfair competition could be a BIG problem here. Unfortunately, the
nature of the relationship between the FreeBSD project, FreeBSD, Inc.,
and Walnut Creek -- and the fact that primary developers are WC
employees -- makes it all too easy for WC to leverage its situation.
This may be the reason why there are no seriously enhanced
alternative distributions now.

>Also, based on your prior arguments, you seem to be arguing things 
>both ways.  Either a lot of the credit for increased FreeBSD popularity
>is due to Jordan (who is working the trade shows and popular press), 

Some of it is. But some of it is the "rising tides floats all boats"
effect; some of it is due to my work behind the scenes; and some of it
is due to the work of others.

>or
>it is actually due to you (working behind the scenes), in which case 
>Jordan's efforts are irrelevant.

Just because my efforts may be effective (which I think they are), why
would that render what Jordan does irrelevant? It isn't a black-and-white,
either/or situation.

>   If the latter is the case, why are you so damned worried about his 
>actions?

Because, as nominal project leader, he dictates many of the memes which
surround FreeBSD. And these memes are not as hardy as those of Linux,
leading to negative consequences which I've discussed elsewhere. This
needs to change even to achieve some of Jordan's goals.

>And don't wave that "But Jordan tells people that FreeBSD is for servers,
>and I want to target the desktop; I want him to stop saying that!" argument
>at me.  

I wasn't going to bring up that particular issue, but in fact it is a problem.
As Stewart Alsop correctly observed in the Senate Judicial Committee hearings 
about a year ago, people want to run one (count it) operating environment in their
businesses, in their homes, everywhere. And for good reason: support is
easier and more readily available, your OS knowledge and experience goes 
farther, and there's no need to switch "modes." That's one reason why
companies and many individuals are adopting Windows NT, even though they 
know it's slow and riddled with bugs and security holes. 

FreeBSD must be eminently usable on the desktop as well as on the server, or 
it won't meet this important need. Fortunately, it's close to being so. But if
Jordan, the nominal project leader, says it isn't, he's harming the project
and the product more than *I* ever could.

> From a business perspective, this should be considered a good thing.
>It allows you to carve out your own niche, and have a strong selling point
>which allows you to differentiate yourself from the other (WC) distribution.

Trouble is, if my product is a distribution of FreeBSD, and Jordan as principal
developer of FreeBSD disses FreeBSD as a desktop OS, it would become a big strike 
AGAINST the product I'd be selling.


>In short:
>
>     1. You don't need permission or endorsements from FreeBSD, Inc.

It's likely that I need permission to use the trademark. Unless this is
already given via a blanket public announcement that says, "You may use this
trademark if..." I've seen no such announcement so far, but if it does not
exist it should.

>    2. WC cannot stand in your way.  If you want assurances that they
>        won't compete with you, you won't get it.

See above regarding the difference between competition and sabotage.

>Is this a fair summary?

I've commented on the points which I didn't thing were accurate.

>In closing, I'll note that you don't necessarily need support or goodwill
>from Jordan to succeed.  Take a look at Etinc, for example.

I don't know much about them. Can you elaborate?

In any event, while I don't need support from Jordan, it'd be nice at least 
to be collegial. And I *do* need assurances that success won't cause WC to
sabotage my ability to do a distribution.

--Brett



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