Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:02 -0700 From: Studded <Studded@gorean.org> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes Message-ID: <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org> References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au>
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Removing a discussion from its originating environment does a
disservice to both the "new" list (because they are asked to comment on
something that they don't have a context for) and the "old" list
(because the members of that list might not see the responses).
Therefore I'm sending this back to -newbies.
Sue Blake wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700, Graeme Tait wrote:
> > Studded wrote:
> > >
> > > Sue Blake wrote:
> > >
> > > > My suggestions for newbies are:
> > > >
> > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version.
> > > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first.
> > >
> > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't
> > > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to
> > > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for
> > > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and
> > > then install the latest -Stable.
> >
> >
> > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. My
> > understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine
> > being 2.2.6R).
>
> That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using
> -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good
> reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where
> experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present
> opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of
> opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In
> -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god.
As I recall, this was one of my objections to the creation of the
-newbies list. I'm glad that you're seeing things my way finally. :)
> I was recommending, only from what I've been told as a newbie, that in
> general -RELEASE is what newbies should be looking at unless there's a
> strong reason to do otherwise. It was only a guess. Now we have a
> learned view that newbies should never deal with a -RELEASE but should
> consider that their last option, after -STABLE and -CURRENT.
No one (certainly not me) said anything of the sort. As I commented in
my last post I should have prefaced my comment with, "If you are
upgrading from the net anyway, . . ." However I'm guessing that sue
wrote this one before reading my last. If further clarification is
needed I'll be happy to do what I can.
> (Personally I can't understand what goes on in freebsd-stable let alone
> freebsd-current but I'm just thick).
-stable is a low-traffic list that consists primarily of discussion
about what should and should not be included in the -stable branch, and
discussion of how to deal with changes that are made. Questions germane
to the topic are always welcome on freebsd-stable so new users shouldn't
be intimidated by that list at all.
> There are probably good reasons on
> all sides, but who cares. We need square one, not squares 1 to 53.
I care because I want to encourage new users to use the best version of
FreeBSD that's available to them so they have the best experience
possible. If a new user goes to releng22.freebsd.org and installs one of
the -Stable snapshots they will have just as easy a time installing as
if they were using a -Release version (probably easier in fact) and they
will have a better FreeBSD experience because they will be avoiding any
last minute problems that got crammed into a -Release.
> OK, assembled learned helpers, sort it out for yourselves where you can
> see each other, and put your final recommendation for what branch
> newbies should be on into the handbook, if it's that important. We got
> plenty to confuse ourselves with already without weighing up the big
> fish in our pond.
I'm not sure exactly what the above paragraph means, however I will try
to make what I think is a related point. I stated an opinion about what
version of FreeBSD I think new users will have the best experience with,
and Greg expressed a slightly different opinion. For my money it's a
good thing for new users to see people with differing opinions
discussing a topic, especially when the discussion takes place in a
forum that they should be comfortable in.
In some ways my opinion about the need for a new users list has
changed. I think that it has value and I'm glad to do what I can to help
with it. However I think that attempting to isolate new users from
differences of opinion is a mistake. As has been mentioned here
previously this list contains all levels of "new users," and trying to
cram them all into your (sue's) view of the "one true way" does all of
them a disservice.
Doug
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