From nobody Mon Mar 28 19:11:15 2022 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1501A50C4F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:11:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA512 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KS2Np2mwxz3Hy2 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:11:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: X-Rcpt-Mailer: X-Mail-Mailer: local X-SMTP-Proto: ESMTP Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 22SJBFsA080769 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:11:15 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Using a FreeBSD desktop was somehting about dog food Message-ID: <20220328121115.7d368d32@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20220328055449.8a30774a61f3b298e778ae68@sohara.org> References: <38b7f44-6d54-fec6-c1f0-d3609d301687@safeport.com> <20220327132420.201da20c@archlinux> <20220327212421.adaee52ba708a058e5ef6bd8@sohara.org> <4f3edca7-45ec-b8ae-45dc-9648cced9bfe@kicp.uchicago.edu> <772cf4b0-9e26-3126-ec4b-bd91986883dd@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20220328055449.8a30774a61f3b298e778ae68@sohara.org> List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.5-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4KS2Np2mwxz3Hy2 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.630]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 05:54:49 +0100 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote: > To those of us who once despaired of saving up the thousand[1] or so > a *binary* unix license without networking, compilers or text processing > suites (throw in another couple of hundred each for those) or spent weeks > getting X11R5 to work on an unsupported platform (you may imagine how good > it was to see that X move on a black screen for the first time after weeks > of fighting library, compiler and make limitations) complaints that what's > available for free lacks the gloss and polish of commercial software seem > churlish and ungrateful. Using FreeBSD on a server grants you very measurable benefits in terms of reliability, security, and surprises. Thus, it is logical to expect the same ideas on a desktop. I've been on a FreeBSD desktop for easily 25 years (I'm not counting, but I started this journey in the 90s.) So over these years, what many call "Gloss and polish" has turned into "acceleration and usability". There's an entire generation for whom saying "emacs is my IDE" is met with hidden laughter and scorn, as this generation has fancy tools that (for example) allow one to refactor an entire code base with the flick of a button so you can change that function name to something more readable than "doTheThing". Expose features on the desktop are another example. I understand being grateful for what does work, and I truly am. :) What I don't understand is the implication that we are somehow ungrateful and rude if we have to settle for what sometimes is -far- less. By "settle" I mean the idea of "we should just shut up and take what we are given". Worse, these expressions are often sharing threadspace with the idea of "Why don't more people use FreeBSD?". Irony, anyone? To be clear, my intent in this message is not an advocacy of Linux or other commercial OSes, or a dis-advocacy of FreeBSD. This is an appeal to tolerance. Those who bitterly complain about some missing feature might actually have a point or they are truly frustrated. Would it really cost so much for developers to -at the very least- acknowledge some of this frustration, to say nothing of -addressing- these issues? Just my USD $0.02. Thanks for reading. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - LA CA, USA - dave@dream-tech.com >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble. -- Mahatma Ghandi