From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 18:54:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28111 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:54:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28105 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA09440; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:55:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Robert Nordier cc: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Feb 1999 19:53:30 +0200." <199902021753.TAA03724@ceia.nordier.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:55:07 -0800 Message-ID: <9436.918010507@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Bleah! Dealing resourcefully with one's own ignorance (aka learning) > is a basic life skill, and people who find the process traumatic, > or who need to thrust the responsibility onto others, need remedial > counselling, not support groups for everything. With all due deference to Sue, I have to chime in behind Robert here and say that what Sue collectively refers to newbies are really two distinct camps of people: 1. Those who are totally ignorant about FreeBSD and probably Unix in general but are interested in learning new things and don't mind getting their hands a little dirty in the process. 2. Those who simply want to be on the bandwagon because they think one scores major `1337n3ss' points by being a Linux or FreeBSD user or they've got a small ISP or porn site they just want to make work. They also know little or no Unix. The difference in dealing with the two camps is like night and day. The #1 camp folks are interested in trying things on their own and only drop by IRC or -questions when they're really stuck and just need a hint. They're also usually polite in asking their questions and have great respect for those with the answers, taking care not to piss them off by leaning too hard on them. Those types are a joy to help since they generally have reasonable questions and also point up places where the docs (which they read first) are lacking. I've committed more than a few doc changes after talking to such folks and some of them are also now developers, having passed through the seven veils and all that to now become productive citizens in their own right. The #2 camp folks are, frankly, just a waste of biomass. They don't want to read docs or exert any more than the most token effort and they're not interested in making their own mistakes since they're also not really interested in learning anything at all, being entirely focused on the "reward" of being able to call oneself a FreeBSD user at school recess the next day or getting that porn site up and generating revenue. From these folks, you here constant comments to the effect of (and I'm not paraphrasing) "Don't tell me to read the docs, JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION!" and "I don't ever read the docs - docs suck! I hate reading all that crap." They're usually anything but polite and, in many cases, are suffering from such a fundamental clue shortage due to having this kind of attitude about life in general that helping them isn't even an option - after about the 4th round, you realize that teaching your grandmother nuclear physics would probably be a lot easier since each and every thing you say is just being met with a stubborn "I don't understand - can't you just do it for me? I'll give you a login." They don't listen and they really don't want to, they just want free handouts for life. I don't think that exerting any effort to help "newbies" in the #2 category is rewarding at all and I'd just as soon those folks learned to play with guns and alcohol so as to take themselves out of the gene pool as rapidly as possible. They also tarnish the reputation of genuine newbies (in the Sue sense) since folks on IRC encounter so many folks in the #2 category that the #1 category folks start catching stray rounds and succumb to friendly fire. If Sue wants the newbie community to succeed in general, she has to make it clear just what segment of the "perceived newbie community" she's really aiming to support and she needs to make sure it's well understood that the #2 folks need to be given the old heave-ho, not help. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message