From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Mar 30 02:39:14 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F709155DF85; Sat, 30 Mar 2019 02:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C01C18F626; Sat, 30 Mar 2019 02:39:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.193.229.77]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MgzWP-1gTHoT1aGr-00hMyl; Sat, 30 Mar 2019 03:33:44 +0100 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 03:33:42 +0100 From: Polytropon To: mayuresh@kathe.in Cc: Daniel Feenberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sending Tcsh to packages/ports ... Message-Id: <20190330033342.e5fc3373.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <869a55f05dde045b1947f53ce3c5851f@kathe.in> References: <64780f09d4251b9641e3bca39000ae2d@kathe.in> <869a55f05dde045b1947f53ce3c5851f@kathe.in> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2vBnmBbiDShRLum7bmU1Ff9W666vPb4XhoAh2rTlznXFN9csHgP DWv81tD5ZY4dXvTj58gc0Anf6KB7aFy4U1dkuvc6ujwFmTJuRX1xTyPruBXulP4EVnzJIYt nJDWdKRf7S0wYZPjB8gfPr5ul/lZEOOEsqXAmM+/GvORxrWjlHNNpZUZOiud1pprb3K7VrI wTO05356I+c/yuU84CQ6Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:oVk+frAU+HA=:KP2NUgWsmPldipK2vlGHnN wbE0aGCKlIh3xW4H9YltEfS6eicZdddDJCzF2ACYbBBEHpGldjeUSH0+DzMFQMJYJ4wxtU7qq 1fSDG5x4F4FC/5khCSf9KrZbFB661kZm2sjV6ojxrRbZ7AFMzx4rsZpr6c6SoikcFQwUGEvi9 pYVKsElqwnhWsj4KxIMPezytsYsOlKQiOzpkhqqnrBSqJrURo2XqG1hQ7FO/Oq6QMTCTU7EOw XHvSwEMCxko9laq0aBooGkVbNrzn5UvOWI7Sgb1V9qKKhcXiOoTN1HPVyuhLjEcNpyCXTEf5e nuDzq5s/MfQnFQ5ttAEYILmPlJBMKXliA7JFym35EcdIQ+9dyDKC+3+qBYLPTwEpeGcF7sh6S Ddyly7uN+ROJrxt7CmD+B0oXMlw5pcCktBVHE87UfEoRo7gFMMeJF1YgkD8echRyYulhbYIzU r0Bni4TwMPTtrjwh2CULqcBREJQZVN5h3PVZv7DT2nDDqoOHqyVBoGafuEuhSzDGCPI9F1WCO Wixg6nDjrHWn5Kz/iWSyP+l8ClPzDL2o+7qwhaPrmjN9CpfcwEAgEBRJpglYlYyrc0VCT+8f9 gmFGkHvlDIk+ltwZwRb7pe83HC02PyYz/woU/LcA1ufLeRzEdo47xz26/GKVvUdBqlrMC4B+V 7sCNINbL/2m6COt8sNAWQOSCfjRQRGyy/tKJyw/ucujeZHNMJpI6TwVZoJ15C8Kn0KU1hT8a6 DWkWRlW+oZ004eD4x8I4wE7DUPt0Q+lHIZ8wQBDJbul7dBZyxy+2QQYyZjE= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C01C18F626 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.64 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mx00.schlund.de,mx01.schlund.de]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[77.229.193.92.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.10]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.88)[0.884,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.84)[0.843,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[131.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.53)[ip: (2.37), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.31), asn: 8560(1.59), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 02:39:14 -0000 On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 19:08:16 +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > On 2019-03-29 04:59 PM, Daniel Feenberg wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > > > >> Since Tcsh is usually imported, why not send it to packages/ports > >> collection? > >> I agree that "csh" is an historically important artifact, but do we > >> need to still rely on that? > >> I have been using "csh" ever since I started using FreeBSD, liked it, > >> but it doesn't feel light like plain old "sh" nor is as feature-full > >> as "bash". To top that, the installer asks me to choose between "csh" > >> and "tcsh" in-spite of being the same binary. > > > > ed and csh are important for those that use them. I use both, not > > always, but enough to see the importance of keeping them in the OS. > > There is a fallacious style of argument that decodes to "If a is > > better than b, then b is no good and it is a sign of bad character to > > use b". There are many cases where the transition costs of moving to > > different dependencies will be significant, especially for less well > > informed users. > > What if you had access to your preferred tools via packages/ports? The core problem is an educated consensus about what should be the default content of the OS. Access to ports or packages usually implies that you have (a) the installation media, or (b) Internet access. In cases where this does not apply, for reasons like "didn't think about that", "our Internet doesn't work", "Security! Security! Security!" and more, you should definitely _not_ be left with an OS that doesn't have a usable interactive shell or an editor. The mentality of "you can always install it afterwards" should not be applied to basic OS tools and demands. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...