From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 3 01:50:19 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FDF2C05; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 01:50:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mouf.net (mouf.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:0:4400:216:3eff:fe69:33b3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mouf.net", Issuer "mouf.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D44396ED; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 01:50:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mouf.net (swills@mouf [199.48.129.64]) by mouf.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s331o9qM061374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 01:50:14 GMT (envelope-from swills@mouf.net) Received: (from swills@localhost) by mouf.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id s331o8kx061373; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 01:50:08 GMT (envelope-from swills) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 01:50:08 +0000 From: Steve Wills To: Daniel Eischen Subject: Re: login.conf --> UTF-8 Message-ID: <20140403015008.GB51052@mouf.net> References: <201404022206.s32M6DD4090396@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <1396479395.2280.21.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> <20140403011202.GA51052@mouf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.22 (2013-10-16) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mouf.net [199.48.129.64]); Thu, 03 Apr 2014 01:50:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.5 tests=none autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mouf.net X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mouf.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Garrett Wollman , current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 01:50:19 -0000 On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 09:31:08PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Thu, 3 Apr 2014, Steve Wills wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 03:56:35PM -0700, Sean Bruno wrote: > >> On Wed, 2014-04-02 at 18:06 -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote: > >>> In article <1396457629.2280.2.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com>, > >>> sbruno@freebsd.org writes: > >>> > >>>> I'd like to make this change to login.conf for default installs. > >>>> > >>>> This removes some amount of hackery in the ports system that is working > >>>> around our lack of UTF-8 in the base. > >>> > >>> I'm not sure what the connection is here. Surely the ports system > >>> runs with the locale of the user running "make" (which in my case is > >>> going to be "C"). Any port that requires a specific locale to build > >>> properly needs to be setting that locale explicitly. > >>> > > > > You'd think so, but that's not what's happening. What's happening is the > > software builds as long as the locale isn't C. Hence, ugly hacks like this: > > > > http://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/Mk/bsd.ruby.mk?annotate=348863#l257 > > > > Why? Because the people writing it have never encountered a system where LANG > > isn't set or is set to C. Yes, it's a bug in their software. No, they never > > have and never will encounter it. Because every other operating system sets > > LANG to whatever the user specifies. And so they have no interest in fixing it, > > because neither they nor any one they know will ever encounter it, and even if > > you report it to them they will tell you it's a bug in your system for not > > having LANG specified. And I have no interest in patching it hundreds of > > times. > > > > And this is just one example. There are others, I think, that aren't ruby > > related at all. > > The first thing I do when I get a Linux system is set LANG to C. > I hate all the colorizations and incorrect ordering from ls when > LANG isn't C. So you are saying, that ports will be broken when > I set LANG back to C again? > > >> I have been informed by folks that this change I suggest would help in > >> the case of ports having to declare UTF-8 support explicitly or > >> something. I'm hand-wavy on the details and ignorant of the hacks in > >> place. I only know that I've been *told* this. > > > > I think we should join the club of asking the user, but that's more work and > > until then having a reasonable default and having people change it seems sane. > > A default is fine, but saying that ports will be broken when not > using the default is not fine. This is LANG, not a gcc/clang > machine-specific optimization that someone has set to get an > extra 0.001% improvement, but happens to break the compiler for > some ports. I suppose you're right. Ugly hacks to work around ugly hacks will stay. :) (Not that I'd planned to remove them any time soon anyway, because such a change would take a long time to propogate to all supported versions anyway.) Steve