From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Tue Apr 19 20:04:58 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B33B0AC76 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:04:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbtakk@iherebuywisely.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC021175 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:04:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbtakk@iherebuywisely.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8A605B0AC75; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:04:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A034B0AC74 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:04:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbtakk@iherebuywisely.com) Received: from aibo.runbox.com (aibo.runbox.com [91.220.196.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 232AD1174 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:04:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbtakk@iherebuywisely.com) Received: from [10.9.9.241] (helo=rmm6prod02.runbox.com) by bars.runbox.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1asbZj-0001gZ-RG for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:44:43 +0200 Received: from mail by rmm6prod02.runbox.com with local (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1asbZj-0003Ra-Qs for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:44:43 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [Authenticated user (846156)] by runbox.com with http (RMM6); for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:44:43 GMT From: "Jeffrey Bouquet" Reply-To: jbtakk@iherebuywisely.com To: "current" Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:44:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: RMM6 In-Reply-To: <57166870.5060104@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:04:58 -0000 On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:18:40 +0300, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > On 19.04.2016 19:28, Nathan Whitehorn wrote: >=20 > > 3. Have ~10 meta packages that just depend on sets of the 755 packages > > and hide the internal details. This gives the user experience of (1) > > with the implementation of (2), and is marginally more complex than eit= her. > How does it help Slawa with his broken system when "pkg upgrade" > replace only half of "base" packages? >=20 > Meta-packages as they are now: "no files, only dependencies" doesn't > help here at all. >=20 > Really, if I want "base but no sendmail" I want easy way to see it > after 5 years after installation, and 755 packages, covered or not by > meta-packages, will need me to read all list of 754 packages to see, > that there is no sendmail, for example. It is trivial example, but it is > completely valid. And there are many other such corner cases, which is > common for administrators and ops, but not for developers. >=20 > Please, consider ops and admins, who must support old installations, > often made by other, not-reachable, people, and stuff like this, >=20 > --=20 > // Lev Serebryakov Thoughts PRO pkg base from here: it can fix a broken installworld that breaks midway rendering the system n= o able to login, not able to compile or install futher, or some other event... Can those failur= es be crafted purposely to show how the could be readily per procedure if a usual installworld fa= ils? Thoughts ANTI pkg base from here: Several, but I have thought of more work required for developers who have = custom kernels and a large amount of code that is BETA and not READY yet and are slowed down= by conforming to additional pkg-base requirements.. hindering creativity ... Sparse initial documentation or at some time not upto par ... *FLOWCHART" demonstrating precisely the relationship between a pure-pkg-ba= se and pure-svn-base system, a mixture of the two, how to migrate parts/all of one to the other= , one edge a desired install or several types of same, the other (two) edges where one starts out from= ... that could be updated over the years for a comprehensive overview. =20=20=20=20=20 [ AS AN ASIDE, ] I always tend to think that as missing already in pkg= , svn, synth, poudriere, jails, chroot, wpa_supplicant, ndisalator, linux-c6, binutils >> << gcc , zfs= , ssh_config, ipfw, pf, geli, gpart, UEFI, xorg.conf, some individual ports, [ I should stop typing = here, because even as I type more things come to mind... problem with a port ? pr OR maintaine= r OR documentation OR... flowchart... etc ] stuff-to-leave-out-or-include-in-a-kernel, buildworld/installworld, pp= p.conf, NOT AS CRITICISM but as "Why is it not at least as good for newbies to each concept or bett= er than a WIKI !!! as not only the simplified explanation sometimes can be made more apparen= t of which cli to issue next, but time spent reading stuff NOT specific to the task at hand is saved= .=20 =20=20=20=20=20 Adequate testing? some breakage bound to happen... fixing such breakage p= rocedures in place? A UPDATING for pkg-base specifically?=20 Again, not wishing to waste one's time, just writing down what I've thought= of so far, freely simply file it away rather than reply online... my answers to any reply could simply r= e-iterate the background to the above (I am NOT well versed in many topics of FreeBSD, just in the more use= ful ones at the installs that I use daily... ).=