From nobody Wed Mar 30 07:17:19 2022 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FC61A4159C for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4dd0003124c4f.12717cf4f7b63e044419e6faf27c563f@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KSySG3yFRz4j7q for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:17:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4dd0003124c4f.12717cf4f7b63e044419e6faf27c563f@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1648624655; x=1651216655; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=pjUQffzPp6zGJrKmhIo2qhBnn252fR6v+YUi/rz7ScQ=; b=aA7pvv1Swdm6zS5ENUJU79jB6wLQKnoatWfG28rFVKHFvHE0M7tEcYMwizRGvjb1Px0ko5RF6RRN57tZf1THYpRUC2GyLlfO/zKZVlCKs1GS6gFuSr7TH7bzhUPkoQOvabBksVY7Hv+jlQANPBSQdyaEjI5UQurJ8T0RGzaIicU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRkZDAwMDMxMjRjNGYucXVlc3Rpb25zPWZyZWVic2Qub3Jn Received: from r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:17:22 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:17:20 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.94.2 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nZSZz-0000sX-Ja; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 08:17:19 +0100 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 08:17:19 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Dave Hayes Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Using a FreeBSD desktop was somehting about dog food Message-Id: <20220330081719.00abd669621d98dd178ab8a3@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20220329233846.22526db6@bigus.dream-tech.com> References: <38b7f44-6d54-fec6-c1f0-d3609d301687@safeport.com> <20220327132420.201da20c@archlinux> <20220327212421.adaee52ba708a058e5ef6bd8@sohara.org> <4f3edca7-45ec-b8ae-45dc-9648cced9bfe@kicp.uchicago.edu> <772cf4b0-9e26-3126-ec4b-bd91986883dd@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20220328055449.8a30774a61f3b298e778ae68@sohara.org> <20220328121115.7d368d32@bigus.dream-tech.com> <20220328213101.b4e8a7c447964ba025d30883@sohara.org> <20220328173414.0572dd85@bigus.dream-tech.com> <20220329071850.bca73cd201ca6d5d957c532d@sohara.org> <20220329233846.22526db6@bigus.dream-tech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4KSySG3yFRz4j7q X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=aA7pvv1S; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4dd0003124c4f.12717cf4f7b63e044419e6faf27c563f@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4dd0003124c4f.12717cf4f7b63e044419e6faf27c563f@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.189.1:received]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4dd0003124c4f.12717cf4f7b63e044419e6faf27c563f@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4dd0003124c4f.12717cf4f7b63e044419e6faf27c563f@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[email-od.com:dkim] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:38:46 -0700 Dave Hayes wrote: > "I want to be clear that I am not expecting, advocating, or even implying > any -involuntary- or -forced- re-focusing of time. To be very clear, I I don't see you advocating anything else - any way for something to happen without people dropping what they're doing to make it happen. Sure you want them to choose to do what you want rather than being forced to do it, but that's not happening and not likely to happen because they're goals are not your goals. I haven't even seen a clear description of the change you'd like to see. Your great linguistic pains to avoid demanding others to do things failed to include an alternative plan to achieve your goals unless changing their goals was it - that's the same thing at a higher level. I'm attempting to provide you with one that stands a chance of working. When I say the onus is on you I mean a collective you - the group of people who want something to happen that isn't happening they're the ones that have to make it happen not the people busy having fun doing something else. If such a group forms and starts doing real work then either it will align well enough with the goals of the FreeBSD project to become part of it (which will require negotiation) or it could be the nucleus of a partner project like NomadBSD. The first step is getting a group of people together with a common goal which means the zeroth step is articulating clearly and precisely what you want in a small group and spreading that consensus until it includes the skills to make it happen. The FreeBSD project started because a bunch of people chatted about how great it would be to have BSD running on a PC, they figured out what they wanted and made it happen. They were a small enough group of people that I can name most of them from memory (I won't because then I'll get all embarrassed about the ones I forgot to mention) - and I've only met one of them once! I believe I have understood perfectly every word you have written, you on the other hand appear to have failed to understand me - therefore I have tried to be clearer. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/