From nobody Wed Mar 30 18:54:45 2022 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375091A4B4E2 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA512 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KTFwl0bDbz3HF5 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: questions@freebsd.org X-Rcpt-Mailer: X-Mail-Mailer: local X-SMTP-Proto: ESMTPS Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 22UIsjtu085407 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:54:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:54:45 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Using a FreeBSD desktop was somehting about dog food Message-ID: <20220330115445.16cb798e@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20220330081719.00abd669621d98dd178ab8a3@sohara.org> References: <38b7f44-6d54-fec6-c1f0-d3609d301687@safeport.com> <20220327132420.201da20c@archlinux> <20220327212421.adaee52ba708a058e5ef6bd8@sohara.org> <4f3edca7-45ec-b8ae-45dc-9648cced9bfe@kicp.uchicago.edu> <772cf4b0-9e26-3126-ec4b-bd91986883dd@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20220328055449.8a30774a61f3b298e778ae68@sohara.org> <20220328121115.7d368d32@bigus.dream-tech.com> <20220328213101.b4e8a7c447964ba025d30883@sohara.org> <20220328173414.0572dd85@bigus.dream-tech.com> <20220329071850.bca73cd201ca6d5d957c532d@sohara.org> <20220329233846.22526db6@bigus.dream-tech.com> <20220330081719.00abd669621d98dd178ab8a3@sohara.org> List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.5-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4KTFwl0bDbz3HF5 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.950]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.629]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 08:17:19 +0100 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote: > On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:38:46 -0700 > Dave Hayes wrote: > > > "I want to be clear that I am not expecting, advocating, or even implying > > any -involuntary- or -forced- re-focusing of time. To be very clear, I > > I don't see you advocating anything else - any way for something to > happen without people dropping what they're doing to make it happen. ... > I believe I have understood perfectly every word you have written, > you on the other hand appear to have failed to understand me - therefore I > have tried to be clearer. I believe you haven't. :) I could be wrong of course, but here's my case. If you go back, my original response was to this: On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 05:54:49 +0100 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote: > To those of us who once despaired of saving up the thousand[1] or so > a *binary* unix license without networking, compilers or text processing > suites (throw in another couple of hundred each for those) or spent weeks > getting X11R5 to work on an unsupported platform (you may imagine how good > it was to see that X move on a black screen for the first time after weeks > of fighting library, compiler and make limitations) complaints that what's > available for free lacks the gloss and polish of commercial software seem > churlish and ungrateful. ..in which you implied that "people should take what devs give us and be grateful for what they get and if they don't they are rude and ungrateful ... and stop comparing us to platforms that give you what you want". Yes I reframed that, and yes you may take issue with my reframing, but that's how interpret your comment currently. My response to your comment was: Dave Hayes wrote: > What I don't understand is the implication that we are somehow ungrateful and > rude if we have to settle for what sometimes is -far- less. By "settle" I mean > the idea of "we should just shut up and take what we are given". ... > Worse, these expressions are often sharing threadspace with the idea of "Why > don't more people use FreeBSD?". Irony, anyone? After this exchange, by my read, we have arrived at you trying to "motivate me to be the agent for change"; to which I say "Wat?". Both of us have been around long enough to know effective change isn't happening, no matter how much anyone waves their arms. Both of us know that the "polish" people want isn't -ever- happening. Both of us know getting something really important fixed can still be a nightmare of waiting and getting no response for years. We both live here, I daresay. This email exchange has reminded of the quote "I am trying to convice people that convincing people of anything is futile, but for some reason this isn't working...". So ... how did this email exchange get here? My theory: You think I am asking for change in FreeBSD: Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > I haven't even seen a clear description of the change you'd like to see. I didn't really ask for any change in FreeBSD, which is why you failed to see a clear description of anything (and why I claim you may have -read- my words but you didn't -understand- them). If I can be seen as asking anything, I asked for tolerance for users having difficulty in a backhanded way, like this: Dave Hayes wrote: > In other words, I want devs to -want- to help more. :D Hopefully you can understand the idea that I can want this -without- asking directly for it. If I -want- someone to want something, -asking- that they "want something" should be obviously futile; people only want what they want when they want it. Expressing my want for more wanting isn't directly asking for anything, at least how I see it. You can imply I am asking by interpreting my wants as requests, but that's your interpretation. I don't see where I made any direct request of anyone. Mostly, my intent in the initial response (in a fora where my responses are met with the same old assumptions) was to point out the irony in seeing topics pass by FreeBSD's forums wanting more people to use FreeBSD, but then seeing topics wanting them to shut up and take what they are given or be seen as rude. It is hard to believe that this ironic conundrum, which has looped for easily 20 years, is not seen clearly, but that is apparently the case. If you want more users, you would need to be nicer to them and not call them rude for wanting their desktop to work. If you want less users, you tell them to shut up and take what they are given and if you are consistent in this then you refrain from complaining about mindshare. Computing can be very frustrating, even (and especially) for those of us with a computer science degree and/or some skill at the discipline. There's absolutely no need to call all users who want change rude for wanting the change. Call them rude for the way they ask, or if they berate you, or if they yell and scream...I agree can be rude things depending on the context. However, the mere idea of wanting change is considered rude? Really? Well, I find -that idea- rude. :) Feel free to point out where I have missed anything. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - LA CA, USA - dave@dream-tech.com >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< Honest (adj.) - Someone secretly regarded by everyone as an enemy.