From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 14 19:54:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0475A1065676 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:54:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D58FC1C for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:54:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p5796CDBD.dip.t-dialin.net [87.150.205.189]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 427FA844909; Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:54:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from unknown (IO.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.12]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70BC81046; Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:54:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1339703669; bh=We8BygxsEOrS1USEU+vNsVcCGYsfFmKOhEtOxSwaaJ0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=QjNL2IrN/LBg1W3v9s7NODMd+WEk2I1wEZ5MICDGYXFTIh9J/cO2hzZYlFXhkb2AM xozHJ9MkD1liyZhyec17pz7kKfZ2aEL8VPCTD4hW0RXquTuHG5Nw8khaSOXboaJIUG rXw+nMDHgp40u7DBKC9VVMHVVakOyMy8krFRfCVnfbsCIL2Ri0QWYItRJkUqmL2G/6 GM+SupaGc6+whBzCqUaWZx2rybd6Fj25j3S8+ehA/21ha4gQvp/xPM+bgO8d+J73qs OC4K0HKiPK79w5AgT8Mvsv+QFlsb1yZQU6UtcH0xEukGJl0oWFBiflu5Ab4woN05CL Wf0BbTMR3cVhw== Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:54:26 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Garrett Cooper Message-ID: <20120614215426.00007095@unknown> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10cvs42 (GTK+ 2.16.6; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 427FA844909.A0775 X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.944, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL 0.17, DKIM_SIGNED 0.10, DKIM_VALID -0.10, DKIM_VALID_AU -0.10, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1340308476.16909@pgOFiuTVX+vigyiVEVY35Q X-EBL-Spam-Status: No X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:13:21 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Royce Williams Subject: Re: Solving the great resource problem, take 42 (Re: Upcoming release schedule - 8.4 ?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:54:57 -0000 On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:06:15 -0700 Garrett Cooper wrote: > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Royce Williams > wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Adrian Chadd > > wrote: > >> On 13 June 2012 21:26, Mark Linimon wrote: > >>> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 08:50:24AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: > >>>> The only way that this would really work is if there were > >>>> dedicated sustaining engineers working on actively backporting > >>>> code, testing it, committing it, etc. > >>> > >>> I'm going to agree with Garrett here. =A0IMHO we've reached (or > >>> surpassed) the limit of what is reasonable to ask volunteers to > >>> commit their spare time to. =A0This is doubly true when we have > >>> more than one "stable" branch. > >> > >> I totally concur. > > > > Ah, but you can get the same effect by freeing up those engineers to > > work on the hard stuff. > > > > This is my usual soapbox (see [1], [2]): =A0Push more of the mundane > > work out to the edges, so that the developers can focus more on the > > core (like more releases/features/testing/projects). > > > > Here are some ideas. =A0Only developers can implement them, but they > > would start paying for themselves immediately ... in developer time. > > > > - Frequent snapshots, with tools to automatically apply them and > > roll them back (freebsd-update + ZFS snapshots?). > > > > - Tools to do binary walks of snapshots to pinpoint when a bug > > appeared. =A0(Think 'git bisect' + freebsd-update.) > > > > - A taggable FAQ that supports faceted search, and a quick way to > > add entries (or propose them for approval). > > > > - A way to search for known fixes to transient bugs and hardware > > issues [1]. > > > > - General debugging and testing tools for non-developers, including > > tools for filing smarter bug reports. > > > > - A way to automatically upload crash dumps for bulk analysis (like > > Windows does). There's a GSoC project underway for this. > > - A dmesg analyzer that downloads a list during install, and looks > > for known issues (or workarounds) with your hardware for that > > version of FreeBSD (or recommend a different version!). > > > > Tools like these would also help more people achieve the "I tried > > it, and it Just Worked" moment. =A0This can keep people's interest > > long enough to give FreeBSD a serious try. =A0Some of them might > > enter the volunteer pool. > > > > I'm not a developer, but if some of the above could be tackled, they > > might free up enough Developer Equivalents (DEs, a term which I have > > just made up) to be more than worth the effort. >=20 > No offense, but speaking from experience, these are referred to as > "wishlist projects" -- many of which get shelved until developers get > enough time to work on them. This makes more sense when there are more > resources so engineers can work in a less distracted manner as BSD is > not Linux as far as BSD's design stratagem is concerned . We have the ideas list for this (http://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage). While it does not attract that much people during the year, it attracts a lot of students which want to participate in the GSoC. Bye, Alexander. --=20 http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D 72077137