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Date:      Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:34:32 -0700
From:      "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
To:        <Bsdguru@aol.com>
Cc:        <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject:   RE: Imagestream WanIC-520 interface cards
Message-ID:  <001e01c15426$76e20960$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>
In-Reply-To: <165.24c83ab.28f9e878@aol.com>

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bsdguru@aol.com [mailto:Bsdguru@aol.com]
>Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 11:57 AM
>To: tedm@toybox.placo.com
>Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: Imagestream WanIC-520 interface cards
>
>
>>
>>  You know I really think your baiting me.  You know perfectly well that
>>  Hitachi and Cisco are not the same company.  Anyway, Cisco is still
>>  selling the 2501 router, (although list on it is $2600 and nobody buying
>>  it for a single connection to the Internet would buy it new) I just
>>  logged into their reseller's website and the 2501 is still readily
>available.
>>
>
>I dont have to "bait" you..but you dont seem to "get" it. Cisco isnt
>manufacturing 2501s anymore, so they areent buying ICs from Hitachi anymore

Prove this.  The fact is that Cisco is still selling them.  Do you work
for Cisco?

>(I dont know where you get this "same company" stuff). Cisco may
>have stopped
>buying them years ago. Often when a chip manufacturer loses their main
>customer, they discontinue the part for newer parts, or often when they
>upgrade their foundries to new processes they can no longer make
>older parts,
>and its not cost-effective to rework them.
>

Cisco is just one customer among many that purchases this controller chip.
SBS, who makes the WANic, is another customer that purchases this chip.
There are undoubtedly other manufacturers that use this controller chip.

>I only suggested that a card vendor is not in control of this, so it may not
>be their choice that a card is being "phased out". When you buy ICs
>you get a
>notice a year in advance that the part is being phased out.
>

Then where is the announcement on the SBS website that this card is
being phased out?  Where is the info from Hitachi saying this controller
chip is being phased out?

>You are arguing a point without any facts,

wrong.  Fact is that the 2500 series uses the controler chip.  Fact is that
Cisco is still selling 2500's.  If they are selling them they
must be making them.  Fact is that if they are making them they must use
this chip.

Fact is that there's no announcement from SBS anywhere stating that the
WANic400
or the RIScom (which uses this chip) is being discontinued.  Fact is they are
still selling them.  If they are selling them they must still be
making them.  Fact is that if they are making them they must be purchasing
this
controller chip.

Fact is that Hitachi does not list this part as discontinued in their catalog.

 and Im merely suggesting a
>scenario in which your "logic" doesnt work. Take if for what its worth.

Your right in saying that both you and I are suggesting a scenario.  However,
mine is based on observed fact.  Yours is based on unfounded speculation.

If you could show any notice anywhere that this card is being discontinued
then I'd grant that your speculation has some validity.  But, you haven't.
Until you do all your doing is spreading Fear Doubt Uncertainty (FUD)

>Im
>sure you dont understand the opportunity costs that Hitachi has related to
>their foundry capacities.
>

I'm sure you don't either.  However, I'm sure that I do understand the
opportunity
costs of small chip foundaries because it so happens I used to work for a
company
that manufactured an electronic device that used a custom chip in it, and they
regularly purchased this chip in very small lots (100 to 500)  It's perfectly
possible for a chip foundry to make money off small runs.  If someday Hitachi
cannot
make money off this controller chip any more because the volumes have gone
down
too much then I'm sure that there will be interested companies that will
purchase the design.

At this point in time the WANic400 series works, is available, and the driver
works.  Unfounded speculation that the card may disappear in the future
contributes nothing and can even be damaging in that it could cause people
to stop purchasing the card and thus hasten the day that the card is
obsoleted.
If you have a driver to contribute for the WANic500 series to FreeBSD then
I'd cut you some slack in your efforts to condem the WANic400 but until
then, kindly base your opinions on some real evidence.

You need to consider that there has been little change in the price matrix
used by the Telco's for high-speed circuits.  DSL is not and cannot replace
all T1 circuits and the costs to a small company to get high speed Internet
access over anything faster than a T1 are completely unreasonable and
impossible.  There's a large number of business out there that are not
reachable with broadband circuits because they are based too far away from
telephone CO's and as a result they purchase Internet access over T1's.
There's also a huge number of company sites that are part of corporate WAN's
that are frame-relay based.  The T1 and the E1 are not going to go away
any time soon, and until they do there will be plenty of demand for
devices that interface to them.  The T1 and the E1 aren't going to go any
faster and so there's no need to change the capacity of the serial interface
controllers that interface to them.  In short, synchronous serial connectors
of this type are in a market that is pretty static.

All hardware devices eventually will stop being manufactured
including every CPU that FreeBSD runs on currently.  Are we to stop using
FreeBSD because someday the Pentium is going to be obsolete?

Ted Mittelstaedt                                       tedm@toybox.placo.com
Author of:                           The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide
Book website:                          http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com



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