From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 19:34:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88CF27C474 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48yrty4YWzz4923 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qt1-f181.google.com (mail-qt1-f181.google.com [209.85.160.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B15E19B1C for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qt1-f181.google.com with SMTP id y25so940725qtv.7 for ; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaT+1ubbtdcAdZtD/qWVbpvGsN2tP+74XMrtzZP/IDelTQGta3h uKoX+9pvpdvpqw/CMC0Pw0GNi7Qfg1E3NkPf9VM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLaFZooeJfI3SanMBOefbFm+csrUbAgg1kbfvrt/UY9e2mC66uR1t1DwIsuzCWvSTNaoxckVMjuZrgQeF0Sfpo= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:65cc:: with SMTP id t12mr1039963qto.310.1586460873941; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Evans Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:34:20 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 19:34:34 -0000 On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > experience for new users. Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: 1. re: LiveCD/Amnesiac prompt, we really should indicate the expected credentials... we already do special stuff in release/ for install media, my initial impression is that this shouldn't be all too hard. 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should at least have basically usable history at a minimum 3. re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console". Looking at sample output for that specific inquiry: linux-c7-xorg-libs-7.7_8 Xorg libraries (Linux CentOS 7.7.1908) xorg-7.7_3 X.Org complete distribution metaport xorg-apps-7.7_4 X.org apps meta-port xorg-cf-files-1.0.6 X.org cf files for use with imake builds xorg-dmx-1.20.8,1 Distributed Multihead X from X.Org xorg-docs-1.7.1,1 X.org documentation files I wonder if we shouldn't push the version numbers into a second column so it's easier to glean. The initial column with full pkgname is a bit too noisy for my eyes. Further, and this only really applies probably in conjunction with other potential problems and may be completely incorrect, but I think we should be giving our users something that they can just quickly slap onto a `pkg install ` line and have the greatest chance of doing the right thing. AFAICT pkg-search won't trigger a `pkg update` before the search, so by the time you actually pkg update+install the remote repo may not have that specific package (w/ version) anymore: 4. re: /proc, we should hold a separate discussion on this list about whether we can mount /proc by default with debugging facilities eradicated. Thanks, Kyle Evans