From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:09:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0914733CEFF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:09:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWnL56qdz47nQ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:09:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MrhHm-1j8Z0h1oay-00neeh; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:09:07 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:09:06 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:d6arsj3yytWyaK3mxmHyPeIYUlpoTCE+scv3QyxscSPrwCDSB+N ppBBcM8gdGWweEWmjVz/X9Yr0omnPg8GWL2MOFDIg2kXYVlZLSuNYReLwYx0e6Z7/qvtTJM FUai9Qo6dD2JD8gn9+cjk0TW2syus5CpMeE4I2eZqehtM+Ny6p8lvHddlqaY99W84KRkILg zzEmDOHIDN/pYqKtCK0Ew== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wI7Z2y/oVjM=:chV5H5u+nR/tNGk74JOuY0 miytktrXFe6RQNqbAjLFMaPE80lOBoXUd086ju2KLR5TkZTRjenzBJt3HEHQ9RT7ymRNv4DY4 Rf67siwYNDOz/5/jNGC4FDIWpRAkuUXnRER1/pR6+YcWGCZkNhhWYVio/135Zz4hSm5CYI0v5 TSSlPtlcm3/5aidZ58NdjZBc5mgDBM4h0hOnQLlPFICl2YB5OG7KzrsmRZYesnk5R2lceGF4e QrnFqrcuUA0n5kkA6heUSMKaqpshQiNCe0Y2ahxg19NYSM7nZ3M78NhabPz3LmTW0LRcnUfv/ Q5RYx3ZVsHIA3lsi82Rlu6Mzo5UQdwQFjLzSukG1huqoWtTCpk613ZOTlgF4lt+kkUQuSW4hn ILXsMTNL6r6w6F4G9U7AQcRxCAWP7RHfP1+Zou1ZxqchqgqufRrB+Sz8ph+1WGaR8pJ0tBwku 0M2sXU2kWANoUbBKxxn15oopM/pMtsoQwP7sgSV76g7oVgOppoUM+naGjJ7wu1mQ4IUdgFz2x IdC2N2hBafYEvJHdP7Xoj7x6MHlrhBevYE3giYgaZ35zFWQNctTkBJEdneQcGHr3vqn8T8asi kgIwGl3IA0oGazfvF1GEk9kk11Wu8nlfLaCDp6OJjod9gPXBloHJLiaL2/LczwxigjkQp61Zt a2Ksex5YeHh+iREQtKsZOlYRmC0ptm97sgIaM2BzZVoGtHTn9iKjINxEfcc5y3IBuubDhkSA4 YbTOclZigwmxtwVOefcNwGqrOMTeYEUVUXzdOquhdOUfnaK82HAFMPj2gB+ks6kAopgTpBS4w awoOPq+OgtTNev3t015LCVREiQH31h9cG5EJVnAMKOttqbam26DxATpdPqjRLk3bcHoD0uY X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mWnL56qdz47nQ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.26 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.62)[-0.621]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.14)[0.143]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.84)[0.842]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,edvax.de,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:09:12 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:21:52 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:06 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > >> there for a reason)... > >> > >> There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) > >> > > > > If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for > > better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech > > support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used > > to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). > > > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions of > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character plain > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, and > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern times, > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? In case of support, personally I would want something that helps me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the "looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply "don't look as good". > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting issues > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. Certain MUAs display the attachmend right underneath the message, especially if it's things like images or text that can be easily embedded. Depending on the MUA in use, getting the content of the attachment requires one or more additional steps, but it should not be a problem. What _could_ be a problem is that the mailing list explicitely does not support attachments in general, or only allows a specific subset of formats (like plain text attachments). But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% /compat/linux/dev/shm procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /compat/linux/proc And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it became totally useless. > There's plenty of solutions (UUEncode/BASE64, as you so nicely put it, has > also been trialed and tested over many, many years, just FYI - it also has > the benefit of < 80 characters wide), 80x25 is not one of them, and whether > you like it or not, you will -never- get the world to adhere to a 80 (or 74 > or whatever) character wide email. The world has moved on, deal with it. The choice of how wide a line of text in a message is is not defined by the world; it's the choice of the writer. Sometimes, you may intendedly _want_ to write things in a specific, non- standard way, sometimes like this, or this, or even so, that - think about it! -, in the result, the text gets a specific formatting which carries a certain intention, defined by the writer. I admit that this was a stupid example, but still a valid one. :-) > The fact is, you should be committing your code to a repository, and > checking said code out of said repository when you need it. That is not a solution for a technical _discussion_, as I mentioned in an earlier message. Sometimes you just want to embed some code (in a broad sense) into your text, and to employ external resources for claiming that for (;;) ; is a better endless loop than while (1) ; is definitely overkill (that would be, with modern services, how many HTTP requests for essentialls 2 lines of code?). I could've added some comments that should not be line-broken... :-) > No, code > should not be shared via email - and if you do then so be it - your choice, > not a requirement. You don't need to email the code, all you can do is > email a URL to your commit / diff... As I said, things like external code storage and submission including version control have their place, but they are surely not the tool of choice for including code snipperts in the kind of discussions taking place on this mailing list. Again, see the word "code" as anything that should be presented as-is: logs, configuration files, diagrams, formulas. > Again, too much effort to open a URL > right? If you are offline, yes. Having a message full of external resources and not being able to access them reduces the value of said message to zero. Now you might say, but it also appears in the archives, which are "online by definition" - great, so if an external resource goes to 404 or the company responsible for hosting goes belly-up, or gets bought by a bigger fish just to discontinue their service, you have noting. But if you have a message that contains the code, you can still get its value, because it is simply "in there". > I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double > click. I guess you still can't today. Please don't insult people. And: Yes, there are a few users who probably can't click, or use any GUI at all. They surely are a minority, but excluding them just by being in "snob mode" is not fair. Yes, I'm primarily talking about users with extremely limited eyesight, and blind users. > Again, it's the minority that is sharing code via email... In fact, I would > say very, very, very little people do it. You are free to check the mailing list archives, just to discover that this has been successfully done for decades. > Oh - and I love email.... Never said I didn't. Always use the right tool in the preferred way of a specific context to achieve the most value. There is no "one size fits all" egg-laying wool-milk-sow. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...