From nobody Wed Mar 30 23:26:27 2022 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8FA1A56A94 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 23:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KTMyD6Hc9z3s7c for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 23:26:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from shw-obgw-4002a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.250]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id ZeJ9n8MH1gTZYZhhsnoOUs; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 23:26:28 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1648682788; bh=DgJuRBnMTPYIt8SImMNMTaqx//XRy+71qGNX4CgqX2k=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [162.223.103.50, 162.223.103.50] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_4203 (ZimbraWebClient - GC99 (Win)/8.8.15_GA_4232) Thread-Topic: Using a FreeBSD desktop was somehting about dog food Thread-Index: WrMag50lxMdgiqD0xlJ15RhN1VM15g== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfNdj+u+43+cNXeC+UkOCgK3vBlmbPCCPW2N/ephPdgtg8riOlAIxZ/YzIrYCj2Qi9lPcH6qxYrhxO9/76DmO9UQs8VswPWfks8LFe7Y0bFTFSS3nKXDx 6tyGZRIbWh6f16mSRZwHDmeiuC5NDbEV3jOAHhvhBZHczaRtiCkilIkanGFn5iyUwa3ZVopBUlzg9MbjAXDuTbyZ6du4os8/hQxa/Sv85YUlewb2qRzxlDzn X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4KTMyD6Hc9z3s7c X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=c8hgGCVM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 3.97.99.33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.40 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:3.97.99.32/31]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[shaw.ca,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[3.97.99.33:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.70)[-0.698]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca:dkim] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N +1 nicely worded. --- Dale Scott www.dalescott.net https://ca.linkedin.com/in/dalescott ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" > To: "Dave Hayes" > Cc: "questions" > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2022 1:37:28 PM > Subject: Re: Using a FreeBSD desktop was somehting about dog food > On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:54:45 -0700 > Dave Hayes wrote: > >> Mostly, my intent in the initial response (in a fora where my responses >> are met with the same old assumptions) was to point out the irony in >> seeing topics pass by FreeBSD's forums wanting more people to use >> FreeBSD, but then seeing topics wanting them to shut up and take what >> they are given or be seen as rude. It is hard to believe that this ironic >> conundrum, which has looped for easily 20 years, is not seen clearly, but > > That's because it is not an ironic conundrum but a complete > misunderstanding of what the FreeBSD project members are likely to want. > >> that is apparently the case. If you want more users, you would need to be > > They don't want more users who contribute nothing to the project. > These are the price of finding what they do want or something like that. > >> nicer to them and not call them rude for wanting their desktop to work. >> If you want less users, you tell them to shut up and take what they are >> given and if you are consistent in this then you refrain from complaining >> about mindshare. > > They want more developers and contributors - people who write code, > people who write actionable bug reports, people who write documentation, > people who organise events, people who write concrete achievable > proposals, people who keep ports up to date, people who answer questions in > mailing lists ... > > The message isn't "Take what you're given" it's "If you want more > then pitch in and make it happen - but first make sure that the rest of the > project wants it too" - after all that's exactly what they did, why should > they expect less of anyone else ? > > Oh and finally - you talk about desktops. There are no desktops in > FreeBSD, there are no GUI applications in FreeBSD and there is no GUI in > FreeBSD these are *all* third party applications that run on FreeBSD > courtesy of the folks who look after their ports to FreeBSD. > > Complaints about them to the FreeBSD project are simply > misdirected, try instead to engage with the relevant port maintainer (or in > the case of the larger projects team) and learn something of their trials > and tribulations dealing with the upstream developers whose goals may not > include FreeBSD, or engage directly with those upstream developers. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/