From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 19:36:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40720106566B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:36:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6528FC1D for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:36:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [172.16.12.8] (covad-jrhett.meer.net [209.157.140.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m8IJZbOP065604; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.426 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.426 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.986] Message-Id: <5A9175CD-9D13-4A8D-BFE9-27C749FF8F5C@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v928.1) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:35:36 -0700 References: <47d0403c0809051319r3c82f87bhdb15ce5b0167987a@mail.gmail.com> <2742CAB1-8FF2-425D-A3B6-0658D7DB8F4D@netconsonance.com> <0C2C7E9B-61E3-4720-B76F-4745A3C963DA@netconsonance.com> <658B8861-1E78-4767-8D3D-8B79CC0BD45F@netconsonance.com> <20080918124608.GK91598@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20080918131840.GA18595@icarus.home.lan> <20080918133211.GL91598@freebie.xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.928.1) Cc: freebsd-stable , Jeremy Chadwick , Ben Kaduk , Wilko Bulte , Nathan Way , Wesley Shields Subject: Re: Upcoming Releases Schedule... X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:36:13 -0000 > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Jo Rhett wrote: >> And my e-mails have always discussed ways to get more resources. >> Recently we even had a group of people trying to arrange for more >> explicit corporate support for testing and release process. For >> some reason unclear to me, not a single developer has stepped up >> and said "Great. Here's how we could use you..." The entire >> concept of getting *more resources* is the elephant in the room >> that everyone seems intent to avoid considering. On Sep 18, 2008, at 12:22 PM, Robert Watson wrote: > No, we're just waiting for you to go ahead and do it. Um, how? I suspect you're being sarcastic, but I'll take this at straight value. I have repeatedly said "I could commit X resources, and I know others who are likewise willing to make a proposal for the same with their employer, if our efforts could help improve Y problem." Not a single person, *not one*, has ever taken the proposal seriously enough to sit down and discuss with me what kind of resources are necessary to solve this problem. Seriously, go back and read every reply to me on this or the other thread. Every one says "We aren't going to do it." > No, we'd love it if more people were paid to work on things like > this, but there are two practical problems: (1) finding people, and > (2) paying them. At the moment I will only speak for myself, so let's start there. I write code. I do integration and testing for a living. I currently maintain a number of ports, including cfengine -- which I personally added the PKGMGR code to for FreeBSD support. My employer is paying my salary, and is willing to dedicate some of my time to the FreeBSD project as a whole. (already does in fact, on the table is to increase that amount) (1) you've found me and (2) I'm already being paid. There are others in the same situation. > All of us are busy people -- we have jobs, we have houses with > mortgages, etc, and those of us who are already spending a lot of > time on FreeBSD are probably pretty maxed out without adding more to > our plates. You seem to have a lot of energy to burn sending e-mail > about how to improve the world, and I think what the rest of us > would like to see is that energy get turned to the more practical > part of the problem. As would I. If we could focus on how to improve the situation which has been very well described, we'd be doing something. I don't think you have any idea how frustrating it has been -- I'm here. I'm ready to help. We need to determine how to do this... and nobody will even discuss the problems with me. (if this was a port or a single component then I'd just go run away and do it myself. But the release process is obviously much more complex and I couldn't possibly replicate it or extend it in any fashion from the outside) > If you are literally standing there with money that you can't figure > out how to spend, contact the FreeBSD Foundation Board with a > specific proposal regarding the amount of money and what you're > trying to accomplish. Perhaps we can help you identify people who > would take the money, companies that might want to be involved, help > provide some matching funding, etc. However, it needs to be at > least a strawman concrete proposal, because waving hands only gets > you so far. And it has to be something worth taking time away from > all the other things busy people get up to in life, such as > optimizing network stacks, fixing file system bugs, supporting > releases, etc, or the endeavour has hurt rather than helped. From our experience, there is a lot more money than there is people's time to address the problem. (as you note above and in the final sentence here) I'm trying to offer something -- more people, already paid, to provide more assistance. But since this involves the release process, we'd have to be integrated into the effort to be useful. FYI: this message is the first I've seen that is going somewhere good. I hope you'll take what I am saying seriously. I'm going to stop replying to many of the other subthreads because they aren't going anywhere good, and I'm probably replying too often anyway. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness