From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:33:24 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdB6p2tK9z5SqKn for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:33:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdB6p19R3z4D5d for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:33:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cd34c8c588so7123096a91.0 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:33:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1722897216; x=1723502016; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pCO965QgNcZwgVWTu9sSZdsTD4Ccwh2ZOgemnN2jiZY=; b=w9cVHwxTM0ypJPwg4KCl5O58udYKPp9LNtzf4mag/c5UCbMwLnK9gYwo45Em2vNHnO KYQJm6o33MS36/70k2x7L+8gyMfVrUpTwWdwpkYKDMkJb1CXAWWPRleI/OpQiq8AJgW2 swSXWanqVWsPi0RFTzcZjZ5yoKllSOvK4gx7c0F0YV76GApdalJz+IJ8BMe88P5u0caj ldUv/rUln3VIAntKb9Vr4L4sV5UpPUw1JC9okoW4XLAkSvvdU+Pwk4Yu/3hZpgdDvz/L BFqcaKleTm/Ror7Q0tZNrkXz53RbcpqQxMOlMITfQx2ilsDVozrkJiogyhV7s7flYUbG dqgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722897216; x=1723502016; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=pCO965QgNcZwgVWTu9sSZdsTD4Ccwh2ZOgemnN2jiZY=; b=kJFiH5oKrNOUx73ihxRRKs8sWXnMGNDPFthUPNqrq/tTtaKj81i0EEtLRKxmjPKrwF fFLjX6ec/+/g8iveZY8g6xKY7NXCvN+yS0M1nKrxBMT9+EPLl7RVypLh1daq6xDhy+0p EYpcwpxKgsuYBHnsXx3WL3qXpJX5jTikjwJLTApsXeb9agMU2+/V3WTp0mbY/k0ph16f 8CyMZoGJA8Ws6jh/F+xtDC7q7OkbFSHiqQKF0z40fniHEPf3fTQI/MwamdnBbs0dziKV KOWQdZL3HYJ+lUUIfin7DDjGADUMbRI5gyg7MfIeyJk0p54UGG2aGdSYlooH0KSEwHVl CzSw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWkKdREDxgPGkSPLLET2aQPXXXuuSgvPoIlqrWUwx7zwYH4PtT/YBw/mWfPxRcK1YhszpjxFAXpQGtgB7s7iXcBvwOwWtNcRPDOXf8= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzCk/IuNEURmVSZ6l+rcKVKGbbCjJQZeAuK5JgdqfjDstk2IZy9 /bqm6q3PHJ+/ZcvBc+SKGOmfb4mEO+Sou7OJkaLbjnWmhrBsCRVn3D1krLWcrjzHszf/0B1v4Zu oy+MyWkHC4UJ54Z7zQW3o1PCkmJyxzTOIW73QEA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGWaECUduJw1rrRVOgwyz3bJtBsVVsukaLuMKgZ8B3Ykqghwals0NgOKkn/jpjTemVVJxea4AmthcloHpNu5VM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:5205:b0:2c9:81c6:b0eb with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cff93d5a38mr11398050a91.5.1722897216578; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:33:36 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000943e6e061ef744f9" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdB6p19R3z4D5d --000000000000943e6e061ef744f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > > > > > -------- > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah > > > wrote: > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > .. > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking > up \ > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > | > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > years \ > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put > some > > > \ > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists t= o > \ > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though.= .. > > > > Warner > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > deleted. :-) > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > complains about loader.lua. > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when bearssl and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. Warner --=20 > Tomoaki AOKI > --000000000000943e6e061ef744f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI <= junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp&= gt; wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32= :17 -0600
Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk= .freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> > --------
> > Steffen Nurpmeso writes:
> > > Cy Schubert wrote in
> > >=C2=A0 <704D020F-78A4-4926= -AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>:
> > >=C2=A0 |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah <bak= ul@iitbombay.org>
> > wrote:
> > >=C2=A0 |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so = a suggestion to
> > >=C2=A0 ..
> > >=C2=A0 |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacati= on; picking up \
> > >=C2=A0 |phone reading this thread.
> > >=C2=A0 |
> > >=C2=A0 |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for= about 50 years \
> > >=C2=A0 |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sle= eves and put some
> > \
> > >=C2=A0 |skin in the game, expecting others already with long = todo lists to \
> > >
> > > Most user space tools could be written in lua.
> >
> > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)
> >
>
> Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, th= ough...
>
> Warner

And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not
deleted. :-)
I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one
complains about loader.lua.
<= br>
The only remaining legitimate complaint I've= heard against lua loader is its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k = too big still there when bearssl and veriexec are on given lua's stack = usage.

But we never wrot= e other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing notwithstanding) nor had a c= ritical mass of people wanting to do that.=C2=A0
Warner

--
Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
--000000000000943e6e061ef744f9--