From owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Thu Dec 21 00:27:46 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B1CE8A1B2 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 00:27:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC8706A0D2 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 00:27:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id g69so11290105vkg.0 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:27:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ySpf4J5DTGbMF5blJ15Y59TEaBAMAwDPUBs1NICSGno=; b=oUR7eLXXHCkqa+Pjs5UfrMRiwieO3JXvL0HZqZUfruYWFpaNMWHCeo+3Uc006xItr3 EzclMrp/AAfOTleAvqKnObEKBe6zoyU7KjFtiFnuSm7sBTzhS00OtUuYugvwDGdnjl3u Kd13CFEsJrQeeHoVisnIzYWm7TFuh1u7vfShxXDpeyjROo7YcNWvKwx/7Gb3yGhxSaaJ GY0Z+rCkd36SXGMGQhhHhwzzXOzHHmdzYVYULbhuBt0qbal8SqsXxlanAroOfWII4vul 7n9J3RQ7oSHV1axLEMmm0ptzkjT8HEec0ndqyBVGMlH2FQeOR+mrWl0C4QihqK54N+mv IY5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ySpf4J5DTGbMF5blJ15Y59TEaBAMAwDPUBs1NICSGno=; b=mqHEiel3Ai2Nhs/VCC4SuzLUh2qfqeBoATgZhDyiUlISlfA6rmQNz7Md3JIFcahtXL jyMy5OB5dr+cdelBVfU3229+PKapGYhGTK4Ko5/uZjZqPzGE+csvcjfUO/RFP/JDdmfS 0DSCwU3irv3w4Psks+btkkSccfmB3DPSr6b11Lsodd4d5yoQxOVB31QIwP6nBAHXV4Gz nsKqDpm/AT14rn5NqrI9lP9y2SrEhrI5JgXmMYS9F65HSzKOFcnfFUNMGL3ZTH1amkZp AmsTuvaTYYqwRouh9hMItGo2ePZeyUZSnZ/r7T9sbpnN4o2s+bz2pTBhsgHsgVaLpV1n QMgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJNyf0dOdraYt7evokHDdfc81qvapdKaHX21/1Rzip/geLW0pvU /z7LmZh1PMbeUvvgkQzgFrEPsEKuAK7h7iBrN9/AMpjg X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBoscHCYTMRTkYnaXfZuVJfmtvOAA1D4QQzahVa19wSmHsRKaZ6bPmbBDv09jzCd88GWM1x/i5bMN6wbKMxDRdfY= X-Received: by 10.31.34.84 with SMTP id i81mr8273899vki.181.1513816064558; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:27:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: kob6558@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.147.156 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:27:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8EDCE5A5-391E-4529-9713-79901739CC6F@grem.de> References: <9142f3e2938c84bd838b3764197226be@udns.ultimatedns.net> <8EDCE5A5-391E-4529-9713-79901739CC6F@grem.de> From: Kevin Oberman Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:27:43 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: htwwKna2t0Oez08boCOd4a49cKU Message-ID: Subject: Re: Vote: making wayland=on default To: Michael Gmelin Cc: portmaster@bsdforge.com, FreeBSD Ports ML Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 00:27:46 -0000 On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Michael Gmelin wrote: > > > > On 20. Dec 2017, at 18:50, Chris H wrote: > > > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:13:43 +0000 > said > > > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:23:59 +0000 "Johannes Lundberg" < > johalun0@gmail.com> > > said > > > >> On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Chris H > wrote: > >> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:20:20 +0000 "Johannes Lundberg" > >> > >> > said > >> > > >> >> Hi > >> >> > >> >> I want to suggest that we enable wayland by default. In current state > >> >> having some parts of wayland in ports is basically useless the > >> >> end-users themselves re-build gtk30 and mesa-libs with wayland > >> >> enabled. > >> >> > >> >> libwayland-egl.so from mesa-libs and the extra libraries and headers > >> >> from gtk30 adds like a few KB, a drop in the ocean compared to xorg > >> >> packages. (might be something more that I missed) > >> >> > >> >> Personally I see no reason not to make it default on, even with > >> >> flavors coming up. For any Desktop user (as well as embedded devices > >> >> like IVI-systems and whatnot), Wayland is the future. There's no > >> >> escaping that. > >> >> > >> >> Wayland has been quite usable on FreeBSD for over a year now but > >> >> access to it is limited due to the extra efforts required to use it. > >> >> > >> >> If we are to compare with the other guys, several Linux distros are > >> >> already switching to wayland-based compositors as default window > >> >> server. > >> >> > >> >> What do you think? > >> > > >> > IMHO it's (still) too early. Too much other X(org) related work > >> > still being completed. In fact, I just built a new dev box to > >> > track 12 (CURRENT), and this was the first time I was not required > >> > to pre generate a config file for Xorg. I was only required to > >> > inform /usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/nvidia-driver.conf that > >> > the driver was "nvidia", not "nv". Everything work(s|ed) famously. > >> > A real treat. I'm also a bit concerned about the progress (or lack > >> > there of) on network transparency. > >> > I (personally) could conceive it as a KERNEL OPTION, but would not > >> > want to see it in the Default kernel. > >> > > >> > Well, those are *my* thoughts. Because you asked. :-) > >> > > >> > --Chris > >> > > >> Thanks for your feedback! > >> Just to clarify, we're not talking about changing any defaults that > >> would impact or change users' choice of desktop. We only want to > >> enable Wayland compositors as an alternative to X (leaving X as is). > >> This does not break or modify anything existing. It does not force you > >> to do anything differently. It simply adds a couple of libraries that > >> you won't use unless you run Wayland stuff (if you install qt5/gtk30 > >> and mesa-libs). > >> The reference to Linux making it default might have been unclear. > >> Since FreeBSD doesn't have a default desktop, it's hard to change. It > >> is and will continue to be up to the end user what they choose to use, > >> we only add more options :) > > Thanks for the informative reply, Johannes. > > So no kernel (libs/extensions)? > > Hmm, gtk3. Why is it not possible to make the Wayland stuff a sub > > package/option? I think this is the preferred track/policy anyway. > > I do this for all the ports I currently maintain. IOW any DE related > > stuff I install, that uses GNOME related material, will pull in gtk3, > > which, as I understand you say, will ultimately pull in Weston,mesa,... > > is that correct? While I understand, you indicate it's only a few Kb. > > I think it's cruft/(unnecessary)overhead. Which, in and of itself > > seems insignificant. But in the "big picture", and over many (100's) > > of builds/installations, is *not* insignificant. This also dismisses > > the security related work, maintaining extra un(used|needed) material. > > I suppose some will think that I'm just being nit-picky. But IMHO > > I'm not. This sort of thing, if overlooked, *does* affect the bottom > > line. > > > > Thanks again, Johannes! > > > > P.S. I have nothing against Wayland. I'm just not ready to run it > > on anything "production" related, just yet. :-) > > > > --Chris > > > > The key is to have it in a state that easy to maintain and allows people > to install it using pkg install without conflicting with X, so you can > switch back and forth easily. I'm also not ready to switch to wayland yet > (favorite window manager not available, so many custom configurations I > came up with over the years etc.), but giving users an easy way to test it > (or use it, as it's becoming more and more mainstream now) is a good thing. > > Having a modern, working, out of the box desktop (read: no custom kernel > builds, no need to use ports, a laptop is the point of first contact for > many potential users) is incredibly important for proliferation and > compared to the total size of binaries required to run X, I think the > usefulness of providing wayland easily outweighs the extra overhead. > > Yours, > Michael There seems to be general confusion on what Wayland is and what it does. Anyone who worked with X11 back in the R4 and R5 days probably understands the issues with the client/server protocol. I remember all of the optimizations needed to get it to perform even passably on VMS, most of which went into R6. But the protocol is still painfully primitive and awkward in today's world. It really has no concept of compositors and that makes everything much more expensive on both the server and client sides. I really expected something like Wayland to show up 15 or 20 years ago. Putting Wayland into the system has a minimal cost in disk space. Unless you choose to use it, it has no impact on application performance or size. It mostly means that, if you want to use Wayland, you can o so without rebuilding lots of stuff from ports. The packages will have be built with ll of the required linkages. Does not matter what desktop you use, though many of them may not yet work well (or at all) with Wayland, many will and you wilol be able to try Wayland out easily. YES!!! Wayland support should be present when available. It's all upside. -- Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683