From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 5 16:22:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DDE1065672 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:22:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@my.gd) Received: from mail-ee0-f54.google.com (mail-ee0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C18D8FC1A for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:22:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by eeke49 with SMTP id e49so3623362eek.13 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-gm-message-state; bh=CY9kxIMWX8c5YzRZvrBT4IGHShBdgVR+yBpcQSrKG5A=; b=XanAvuzqLs/QUmQTHx2LS57/QkWd/6ImI8RB8oX2cOD1oP963cTLq0ePJxEdDCO9za n0ousMpOP0/d2BHkVD/q2Ll0xYbpOZ35iPPBPNQOSrnNeu/+n6V0aZdDhWn7fvCvzeND BIDA9aa+X313+jpgOsXG2VnHI69wkZXJyHWjxnlRiCMleKRfdPsxqbMhD8p7vBS5Lb9b 2UNI4JCe95IYQUF/xjEBTZ5hfCorse4EzyOlk6dqcbf+OwzbVJlJ84N7TnGCjN+cNl1Q BMBF3+9jgHppolL/cT8yjgoOW4DnZcSyHspqWpy6A2ZYBCYEW6Oo24Mst6YSepTpqCVI MTSA== Received: by 10.14.37.2 with SMTP id x2mr6568420eea.72.1341505329035; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfleuriot-at-hi-media.com ([83.167.62.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m46sm64225753eeh.9.2012.07.05.09.22.00 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jul 2012 09:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FF5BF27.2030609@my.gd> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:21:59 +0200 From: Damien Fleuriot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20120705082857.GB37083@server.rulingia.com> <4FF55864.8040807@FreeBSD.org> <201207051215.44799.j.mckeown@ru.ac.za> In-Reply-To: <201207051215.44799.j.mckeown@ru.ac.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnV6OB7X1LYHtjMg1IVVQRilSp/d7qB4CVOrb1DEKkn6F5h8rdkzc3SPdBxgWVvwZFynTsK Subject: Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:22:10 -0000 On 7/5/12 12:15 PM, Jonathan McKeown wrote: > On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote: >> On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote: >>> On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown >>> >>> wrote: >>>> As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate, >>>> that's the sort of thinking that led to things like: >>>> >>>> alias dir=ls >>> >>> Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN >>> { #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol >>> and Pascal. >> >> Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful. > > It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original question: > >> why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to >> install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? > > rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top > comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to use > a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional tools > to help them ``settle in'' (but see below). > > You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people > migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the Handbook > so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to > the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa). > >> If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it >> off. No problem. > > No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is > created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I > didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in which I > switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything > switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I > know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments. > I have to disagree here. This feature is also intended to make things easier for new and/or inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. I for one wouldn't mind it being enabled by default as long as I can disable it via a sysctl or rc.conf variable.