From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 7 06:37:48 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F09106568C for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:37:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6CE8FC1E for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:37:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n376bfRg048203; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 07:37:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk n376bfRg048203 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=infracaninophile.co.uk; s=200708; t=1239086263; bh=a1yD0Vp+D8Ei0XyMe87+GJtX4bMQ5/BfJGnCw4iFfzg=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Type:Date:From:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Mime-Version:References:To; z=Message-ID:=20<49DAF4AF.4060104@infracaninophile.co.uk>|Date:=20T ue,=2007=20Apr=202009=2007:37:35=20+0100|From:=20Matthew=20Seaman= 20|Organization:=20Infracaninophi le|User-Agent:=20Thunderbird=202.0.0.21=20(X11/20090321)|MIME-Vers ion:=201.0|To:=20Chris=20Whitehouse=20|CC:=20U ser=20Questions=20|Subject:=20Re:=2 0new=20package=20system=20proposal|References:=20<49D76B02.4060201 @onetel.com>=20<20090404170401.c0f0bce0.freebsd@edvax.de>=20<49D78 9BD.7020103@infracaninophile.co.uk>=20<49DA7BF0.80403@onetel.com>| In-Reply-To:=20<49DA7BF0.80403@onetel.com>|X-Enigmail-Version:=200 .95.6|Content-Type:=20multipart/signed=3B=20micalg=3Dpgp-sha256=3B =0D=0A=20protocol=3D"application/pgp-signature"=3B=0D=0A=20boundar y=3D"------------enig5C4D5744808C3992173A39BC"; b=ZNuEECc2A3aoGGnJQAR4KZzUVdIQLfMy/JsjxAY2Hhy38CpqRsmXTsQhblq84ANia KqfYsw0HaOdbzoj5pzQtl0kFBClUJi100BDjk36+zeMgC+/jfVkjidq1nmQD/LElRE r4WgGPVF8vVfoDDqlUcvovZT3Xv9PGNOnCtl59lg= X-Authentication-Warning: happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk: Host localhost [IPv6:::1] claimed to be happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Message-ID: <49DAF4AF.4060104@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:37:35 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090321) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Whitehouse References: <49D76B02.4060201@onetel.com> <20090404170401.c0f0bce0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D789BD.7020103@infracaninophile.co.uk> <49DA7BF0.80403@onetel.com> In-Reply-To: <49DA7BF0.80403@onetel.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5C4D5744808C3992173A39BC" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95 at happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VERIFIED,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Cc: User Questions Subject: Re: new package system proposal X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 06:37:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5C4D5744808C3992173A39BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Whitehouse wrote: > You've suggested solutions to a couple of Polytropon's objections, than= k=20 > you. Do you think there is anough mileage in my suggestion to make it=20 > worth putting in front of some ports people? What would have > to happen to take it forward? I could rewrite the proposal more clearly= =2E Any well-considered proposal is interesting, and suitable fodder for the freebsd-ports@... mailing list. However you must be prepared for your=20 ideas to undergo some fairly rigourous critique by people who have spent a great deal of time in doing exactly the sort of operations you are talk= ing about. It can be pretty daunting -- remember though that it is your /ide= as/ that are being dissected: it's not a personal attack against you for havi= ng the temerity to try and suggest something. Also, as ever in the FreeBSD world, code speaks louder than words. It's = easy for anyone to come up with a proposal, hard to turn that into a prot= otype that demonstrates the validity of your ideas. Expect skepticism until yo= u have done that. =20 > I suspect it would be easier to implement than freebsd-update, as a goo= d=20 > deal of the infrastructure already exists, and would have similar=20 > benefits. To start developing it would require a ports tree and a=20 > selection of packages compiled from that ports tree. 7.2 Release is=20 > coming up. Maybe the ports tree plus packages from that would be a good= =20 > place to start. freebsd-update and portsnap existed only on Colin Percival's own machines= for quite some time, and then they were made available through ports befo= re=20 being accepted into the core system. That is the usual sort of progressi= on for any major new system modifications. The infrastructure may well exist, but don't assume that there is any spa= re capacity on it. Getting time on the ports build cluster for running expe= riments is not impossible, but it's somewhere way down the queue after the daily work of building packages for the FTP sites and testing the effects of bu= g fixes in the bsd.ports.mk infrastructure or important and highly intercon= nected groups of ports like xorg or gnome. Also, right before 7.2-RELEASE is pr= obably not the best time as that's when things are most hectic. Right /after/ 7.2-RELEASE would be better I think your basic idea of snapshotting the ports tree at regular interva= ls and building a self-consistent group of desktop related applications is a= pretty good one actually. You need to work a bit on the details -- for instance, is it worthwhile rebuilding (say) the X libraries if there have= been no changes to them since the previous snapshot? Also, I'd take a go= od look at exactly how the PC-BSD and Desktop-BSD groups deal with this prob= lem. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW --------------enig5C4D5744808C3992173A39BC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAkna9LUACgkQ8Mjk52CukIw5VgCeO4EUD5IK0WQGM+kzDGbfWCRm tToAn08NMsVvia1PTD2eATaXy34YcyES =UISp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5C4D5744808C3992173A39BC--