From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 20:42:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E82C737B419 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61455 invoked by uid 100); 2 Mar 2002 04:42:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15488.22561.561401.514625@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:42:09 -0600 To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) In-Reply-To: References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <15488.17307.182886.938736@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 9:14 PM -0600 2002/03/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > > How well does it integrate apps that expect to run on Aqua, or > > whatever apple's UI is called? Can I still use them if I'm running > > X11? Do they expect part of their interface to be provided by the > > environment, which caused problems for Motif-specific applications on > > non-Motif window managers? > Well, I've never used it myself, but it should let you use both > at the same time -- Aqua apps use Aqua and display on the screen, and > X11 apps use X11 and display on the same screen. Yes, but. I remember the first SunView/NeWS multiprotocol GUI. SunView windows floated on top of all NeWS windows. Always. They eventually fixed that, but it sure was a pain at the time. SO the next question is where does the X window manager fit into the picture? If I try to use it's resize, lower, etc. functions on an aqau app, what happens? I don't know enough about Aqua to know if the converse question even applies. > > I agree with that. It's also one of the worst things about the Mac. To > > paraphrase, you can have it in any flaver you like, just so long as > > you like apple. > There are always exceptions to the rule, but the Macintosh HIG > work pretty well for the vast majority of the time. Violate these > rules on the Mac at your own extreme peril -- damn, damn few apps > have ever done so and managed to actually make an improvement. I think the key words were "of the time". The way people use computers has changed drastically since the early 80s. I hadn't seen any changes in Apple's UI philosphy between then and '98 that took that into account. Lots of new sizzle, but it was still the same steak - and people are becoming vegetarians. > > I'd have to go digging the numbers up, but a GOMS-level analysis of > > the X11 bloated window managers vs. my not-bloated widow manager shows > > that the expected time to complete a window management task is well > > under 50% for my version. The Mac wouldn't fair as well as X11 does > > under the same analysis. > I'd be interested in seeing those results. I'll try to find them. If worst comes to worst, it wouldn't take more than an evening or two to rerun the calculations. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message