From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Mar 30 02:59:01 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0932155EA2E; Sat, 30 Mar 2019 02:59:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C88E6810D; Sat, 30 Mar 2019 02:59:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.193.229.77]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mz9pT-1gnZCs3OAV-00wCTl; Sat, 30 Mar 2019 03:58:57 +0100 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 03:58:57 +0100 From: Polytropon To: mayuresh@kathe.in Cc: Daniel Feenberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sending Tcsh to packages/ports ... Message-Id: <20190330035857.86508c3a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <2aee9abe70cc944b634751e5df0b375e@kathe.in> References: <64780f09d4251b9641e3bca39000ae2d@kathe.in> <869a55f05dde045b1947f53ce3c5851f@kathe.in> <20190330033342.e5fc3373.freebsd@edvax.de> <2aee9abe70cc944b634751e5df0b375e@kathe.in> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:u5gdP3orG4V5pXJs64FYanmJiLKj8F0n4cb5Me3k7wwg0EJ1FH8 RdwQA7amWt8ZBiJIU2JJYN12AGYV12OKfiFXnInfh5vvXVQKCYHH5teh/AZgkOHWl7vlNlt OIKJsGd5J15PZeuAGRWm+EP4GHHiZJ1kEVhwH0bHp9//UGR081CeWuueULLbwaW9kQ/IJAQ q+eUWRLJqkj4nQPI7zFhw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Bu6S+eBEiOk=:jK6VxKjncmWtUJz7ktXX6y QbUtN2mjikUcWaS8/QgVPPAzZgiHPFzxk2PYIseXp9R7N/KMc6q61+wRx01PlA+RG1C9ncHV1 ngcbS8ybL02Dwwmhwjg3vpGH2t6G8/UcWy814aOSXMXoUXny7ooZNlIUaPgTOvdgrVft0zukd r4aafK1MIUKsJdxTmsjtgAn64Pkm80vW3tKnhKlF0mTQGNDzo5oe+EL0UBLyqSapgSQJXXX5m eirXUteyah3fMe7eRT2KAulOfl0pJh3b8ZKVchmIAiaOWJK3KZuz/KC4zQbi7HVWLmDAwyJLY SCYy2PhXP8QgrMMJed6mXNMAWC4OnpepFv8zSObH+cUvda3fPbERuNQEZbINXBrYC3z+lN5yP UISoYqHxqMpZcsYnHxoorr/hViiyCI1mQD/6p9ERmE/hDvEEFXsBACVnALVm6BEpq3LBcIA7c cNFMFWslX4ktPIj8GIYH2I0EiYUmR1AS4OCZeElDTHiUcul4E+SLdpmhYClyq28PrMnUOndNT CzJ99PcGQQiiGCGaCoqdu5Nlt8y1k/ExYDSFs8DMttAN0KoxWpvCQnjki17CCTm8UwEN9M9Wv QbieBIQNH/l7EACFeloyNo6aUGp/58yATYWaSdMehPdUUjvJfaxi9r47cNxu7mbsXDcyogD1d Yl6o9muDVd+ttMSEGWhC4DqvM6zfQgXe+9HQWmgaEyW7E9Q3xlzK61BJG11Mnj4Iv0BlEonrY AKFpyoPo2uEUCSGJ7gVZXNTQTXg3E/n7gzq8c28Kpnyp7RL9ypp7YLIt+qs= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7C88E6810D X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx00.schlund.de]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[77.229.193.92.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.10]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.97)[0.965,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.91)[0.905,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.65)[ip: (2.96), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.31), asn: 8560(1.59), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 02:59:01 -0000 On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 08:13:33 +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > On 2019-03-30 08:03 AM, Polytropon wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 19:08:16 +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > >> On 2019-03-29 04:59 PM, Daniel Feenberg wrote: > >> > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > >> > > >> >> Since Tcsh is usually imported, why not send it to packages/ports > >> >> collection? > >> >> I agree that "csh" is an historically important artifact, but do we > >> >> need to still rely on that? > >> >> I have been using "csh" ever since I started using FreeBSD, liked it, > >> >> but it doesn't feel light like plain old "sh" nor is as feature-full > >> >> as "bash". To top that, the installer asks me to choose between "csh" > >> >> and "tcsh" in-spite of being the same binary. > >> > > >> > ed and csh are important for those that use them. I use both, not > >> > always, but enough to see the importance of keeping them in the OS. > >> > There is a fallacious style of argument that decodes to "If a is > >> > better than b, then b is no good and it is a sign of bad character to > >> > use b". There are many cases where the transition costs of moving to > >> > different dependencies will be significant, especially for less well > >> > informed users. > >> > >> What if you had access to your preferred tools via packages/ports? > > > > The core problem is an educated consensus about what should > > be the default content of the OS. Access to ports or packages > > usually implies that you have (a) the installation media, or > > (b) Internet access. In cases where this does not apply, for > > reasons like "didn't think about that", "our Internet doesn't > > work", "Security! Security! Security!" and more, you should > > definitely _not_ be left with an OS that doesn't have a usable > > interactive shell or an editor. The mentality of "you can always > > install it afterwards" should not be applied to basic OS tools > > and demands. > > But the basic operating system tools would include the Bourne Shell > (sh), or as you'd stated previously, in the case of FreeBSD, the > Almquist Shell (ash). Isn't "ash" interactive enough for most people? No. This shell is traditionally a scripting shell. The only occassion where you would use it is after a severe system crash, and even from that point, you'd probably just start the C shell for better interactive features. I hardly know people who use sh for more than "csh" (to start csh). On most Linux systems, there is one shell both for scripting and for interactive use, and it's usually /bin/bash. FreeBSD differentiates between scripting use, where the POSIX-compliant sh is used, and interactive use, where the C shell is the traditional shell, but a user can of course install and use a different shell. The scripting shell _must_ always be accessible, and FreeBSD provides an interactive shell which also always works. It's important to understand that a custom user shell might not be available in single-user mode, in a condition where the system can only operate in a very limited way. That's why it's still valid to say you should not change root's interactive shell to something like /usr/local/bin/bash which might cause trouble logging in when /usr or /usr/local cannot be accessed. That's what the toor user is intended for. Sidenote: Some historical UNIX systems actually used the C shell for scripting to bring the system up into multi-user mode. Luckily, this is not done anymore as scripting (!) in csh is terrible and confusing. :-) > At > least I have found it good enough for my day-to-day use. You are actually using /bin/sh interactively? Not that it's impossible, but... well... why use sh when the OS provides you csh whose interactive features are much more advanced and customizable? -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...