From owner-svn-src-all@freebsd.org Mon Jun 11 18:20:22 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-all@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B7E1002E11 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:20:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EA057492D for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:20:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id e15-v6so25026388iog.1 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:20:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=UW5UZuZQ0oCakyDm1OrIR3KnP97lSihJxj8odOMQXzg=; b=RHLQblzS6IIS2zZZAvFii/qHMP3M4LS1dSnrhG4yAuuywDbutOpR4S5fIlgyiTWq6b tZLoUXXOU6bp9qEg6B23FTQPn/JJSb3Kbh1HRssrIlWPAOKJzbetkOxe6c2YrNbTiGAg YizxRrUVV272FfdgteE8JUqX71SIM+9BlEVG5J31XskCEg9/j8YUd9/cvBUwLSH/obyT H0M13gUJF8UaoThrAjS+jelpjmTTR7wUUrQV56T65TgyYQWD72Ok/yJNqgDyh2BUw2PY BbOTi6VyG7kzGcl8IY88avAd0WciZtd061yY9SaDGkCmiVB8483BxZHYNsBjwLx9iXE6 vqdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UW5UZuZQ0oCakyDm1OrIR3KnP97lSihJxj8odOMQXzg=; b=gc9oXjn3CC7CSC5OReRoj09bKjuSf9J7S1S1P7+s8ghb0XTWmgX9a+JBelE/T3C5h2 n1Jc3Ac4REOoxlE7sPhzhpIMfG/xjY1r3NhgNlrarIXPitgtylIB9xBbnNWHvhcbfyT2 cn6lpcK1yATEHI+mPpdGSyQXN4Ladff8hmIaeSxd9YqNkpfvW/JwV8CaQSCQgYlCgZ+z Ne5eNq+uuUdMUI9mDLfngXXpkohsTLKt4LQfXz4QyP9ZQn0Rw8kSE6MmCEcvJ1lhouOn ZMarcdJmma9dvoK19/g7227WhYrRy9HE+ei8lex5YFOhIhwiPB3BMG98cxZfiUJ/4HSn D9GA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3coJVPxE51bSStNV+32XGbj0nkum0UTeBsJ2ASYb7Mk2u+69Jy /yTQQuDMJk1yK1ExyrA3Bt99vFpmFIZ2d+Fqs60brA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJH+X3Mn+v4lHnNv75WmeRks5RIKFg+MBL+i40nKNfWbkFsgFnZsRq+LM6F6X65B+4MtfpjE/84LafpIBUj5Gw= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:284b:: with SMTP id o72-v6mr289040ioo.168.1528741221295; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:20:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 2002:a4f:d028:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <344AA709-2DF7-405C-AB4D-4F0978834EA1@FreeBSD.org> References: <201806110132.w5B1WI5d094546@repo.freebsd.org> <344AA709-2DF7-405C-AB4D-4F0978834EA1@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:20:20 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: B7NCI5sElFOp5MOC-xPpdfLw2QI Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r334939 - head/stand/lua To: Devin Teske Cc: Kyle Evans , src-committers , svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.26 X-BeenThere: svn-src-all@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "SVN commit messages for the entire src tree \(except for " user" and " projects" \)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:20:22 -0000 On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Devin Teske wrote: > > On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Devin Teske wrote: > >> >> >> > On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Kyle Evans wrote: >> > >> > Author: kevans >> > Date: Mon Jun 11 01:32:18 2018 >> > New Revision: 334939 >> > URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/334939 >> > >> > Log: >> > lualoader: Allow brand-*.lua for adding new brands >> > >> > dteske@, I believe, had originally pointed out that lualoader failed >> to >> > allow logo-*.lua for new logos to be added. When correcting this >> mistake, I >> > failed to do the same for brands. >> > >> >> You=E2=80=99re doing an amazing job, Kyle. >> >> I continually see nothing but genuine effort toward feature parity which >> makes me think one day I can pass the reigns. >> >> Yeah, I will always love Forth. It will always hold a special place in m= y >> heart as that whacky language that simultaneously exudes great power whi= le >> also having the image ability to induce vomiting =F0=9F=A4=AE by the uni= nitiated. >> >> However, all that being said, I=E2=80=99d actually like to keep the Ficl= boot >> stuff as an option through to 14.0 and here is why ... >> >> Last year we were looking to update from ficl3 to ficl4. That may not >> sound too exciting to most folks, but most folks don=E2=80=99t know the = power that >> ficl4 brings =E2=80=94 like the capability to use full networking in the= loader! >> Can lua do that? How cool would it be to be able to communicate with the >> network from the loader before the kernel is even loaded into memory? I = had >> a few hair-brained schemes left for Forth which might be exciting, lol >> > > The current boot loader can already communicate via NFS or TFTP today. > Adding http would be easy, https would be harder due to crypto being huge > and space being small (though bear ssl might be small enough). > > The last articulated plan in arch@ was that LUA will be default in 12, > and we plan to remove FORTH in 13. Last time I said it there in February, > there was only email agreeing that I could find. This matches the in-pers= on > consensus poll I took at BSDcan as well. I think it would take a very > extraordinary set circumstance and severe problems with LUA to change tho= se > plans. > > > At BSD Can there was the boot working group where we discussed that an FC= P > would be required to decide this. > In the working group you weren't listening and being rather combative and demanding that I do stuff, so I stopped talking. It should not be taken as a sign of my consent, but more a sign of not wanting to get into a yelling match in public on a topic I thought had been settled months ago. I raised my desires that I would like to be able to flip a knob in 13 and > reboot between Ficl and Lua, back and forth. > > Give people a choice until we have done a "shake-out" through an entire > major version. > > An honest-to-goodness procession would be, in my mind: > > 13: Has both; both are installed. End-user can boot back and forth betwee= n > the two > > Problems that arise in one or the other are non-critical because there is > always an "out" by running the other. > > 14: Has both but both are not installed. The installer media doesn't even > have it. You can't install the Forth booth stuff unless you twist a knob = in > buildworld, optionally going down the path of generating release media > which has the Forth boot stuff. > > 15. It's removed from tree. You can't build Forth boot. Lua only. No > looking back, no way to build it with Forth, to get Ficl you need to go t= o > ports. A Ficl with FreeBSD boot words no longer exists and is no longer > maintained. All of bhyve userboot also therefore uses Lua. > That's way too long. 12 will have Lua by default, but you can build FORTH if you want has been the plan since February when I socialized this on arch= @. I originally pitched coexistence, but there was little appetite for that. So I think a FCP discussed in arch@ is the right path forward. Warner