From nobody Thu Apr 13 13:21:43 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py0cG0qtBz450tD for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1133.google.com (mail-yw1-x1133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py0cF4dH4z4MY2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1133.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fbee98814so33176957b3.8 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:22:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681392140; x=1683984140; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wuKrpdg0k8Wc7o48N9uHCqV0caKJUuhhmPRS8LWo/Ac=; b=FLwcmUapsukTwGj65GyniJ4QnBXwXXGRbKhy9j9Sfyknen4IoN7owxIvNAhcjSIeGu ISW5T3MaNz8j3lIjFnraSd2g/NXm3HYFZfeASfYrCIjiGKbV5dPyycL4AllcTChotZCh 1VIbAOhxk+z5e1GWCPJiVMBjDd4SuKmXYXyvP1m8FqJzxfUSO+vSyr6WVKvBMMeZZNhx UVN+huKSHxB6rOYk2u8/MjvNd5rpBWwRhnutH7qDuO79qIn5x2U9CTC+Eul4t4Woh3UC viv19CQU2T8oJrqHW3zP15v6WP4ZTwlNb3DrKYxtURdKB5IQdvKuTdLxA1PVkFTM6h2g 02iQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681392140; x=1683984140; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wuKrpdg0k8Wc7o48N9uHCqV0caKJUuhhmPRS8LWo/Ac=; b=b5dGIRcuVUopM5wl15UKUWUl90WYPGWoVM9Sj++SqIvQEfeB9Ep/T6OTEwlwyC5ggA zwKA/3M+BgZoEoxjzTx+OEVjdkV8yt/YFBmqfurHjOcH+jm+xs9JmNVlmPxqUzaVOBe7 69kpuGF3YT4O2uQ4b2zkcoi0oTyelhAIud6vAfZYcL8jqqwE/F58i3HWc1NAEFIDn/ls +ooK1hgQl3sRa/zNtfOrZIDwdUTTsS28yebycFLX/JIMwoQ5z4Y/pVjX/vFs7L9kbYh6 72cEaBiqIml4sJgFea0lAMvihxUzzgt48UG8m0taPCFsiZAghIhzbDMqOgVV7drUmLUZ 3bSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9e+IPVVxg0Lt/qmSilrnQpV5mo2FTAR9/9/JU23/UWDkVe84n8Y M+2Tzd6WOlW0UO5uP0M9VVccWOYuccSBsV1a9Ek= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bcVP/s1O/GkPOL4I/BzORLLPmwUpUhUwoh8sE/QkhvJ10vNEal6izDuheX89HkUTJIfj0xvDGB4yqXCojQH5E= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:ec02:0:b0:54c:2723:560d with SMTP id q2-20020a0dec02000000b0054c2723560dmr1376933ywn.3.1681392140275; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:21:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Miguel C Cc: Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py0cF4dH4z4MY2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why should they learn something different to just use what they need ? At this point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not a good business card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a useful and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operating system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't even need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone who has been using freebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who would like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in consideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the machine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn't have the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded FreeBSD have probably already come to appreciate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Remember the focus of my argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract more users. And between those users maybe there will be also good developers that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultimate goal is to make freebsd a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as I read, it's slowly disappearing. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C w= rote: > 100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there i= s > that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" > things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation. > > Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and ther= e > is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes no= t > only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO. > > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentio= ns > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. > > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. > > I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on = my > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will sti= ll > use Linux, K8s etc. > > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to > easy the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be > good for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > wrote: > >> The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools fo= r >> containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the user= s >> that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to >> change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting a= nd >> changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has b= ad >> and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the n= et >> and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of peopl= e. >> This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. >> FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized >> images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe >> something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both >> these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user >> base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction a= nd >> so on. >> >> I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on >> FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come f= rom >> linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't th= ink >> those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Doc= ker >> / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that >> broke the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already >> great and that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community >> could have a more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the >> FreeBSD world and they should not force them to learn only new technolog= ies >> at first. To have some important tools which work on multiple systems me= ans >> having a good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : >> FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be >> populated by a bigger number of users that will come from another OS bas= e >> community ? >> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an >>>> interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. >>>> >>>> >>> and Bastille! >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Mario. >> > --=20 Mario. --0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?

more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. You are on= ly moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that come from a= nother system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why should they le= arn something different to just use what they need ? At this point they cou= ld jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or docker. To learn = something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not a good business c= ard for the new users. And = it implicitly admits that a useful and popular tool like docker doesn't= work on an efficient operating system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd= , but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don&= #39;t even need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone who has been using f= reebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who would like t= o adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in consideration= that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the machine,if= I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn't ha= ve the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded FreeBSD have probably already come to apprec= iate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Reme= mber the focus of my argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a = native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract = more users. And between those users maybe there will be also good developer= s that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultima= te goal is to make freebsd = a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as I read, it'= s slowly disappearing.

<= /div>


On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> wrot= e:
100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been ca= ses where there is that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts = to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation.

Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lis= ts and forums and there is always comments like "but why jails are muc= h better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant but rude reply that serve= only to drive people away IMHO.

I also don't = get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's maintainers/= community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? Couldn't w= e just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just want= to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues w= ith Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes so= me work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentio= ns of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP&q= uot; is supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of t= he day and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.

<= div>I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be th= at super complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think he= re, the argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... = I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in mac= books ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc.

Perhaps the = FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy the way of = running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good for user adop= tion, but probably there are other priorities.


=

= On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com>= wrote:
The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not go= od tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is tha= t the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rar= ely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experi= menting and changing something in the workflow is important,because every t= ool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used= on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot= of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is.= ..good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containeri= zed images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe som= ething has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" bo= th these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user = base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and = so on.

I think that mostly advantages from th= e implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly= =20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel= 's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and = that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a = more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of co= mmunity ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base community ?

On= Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com> wrote:=


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiak= is <pathiaki2@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and = Bastille!
=C2=A0


--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26--