From nobody Thu Jun 23 16:52:53 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EE0868953 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:53:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4LTRC50811z57D6 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:53:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id h7so689763vsr.11 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:53:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iA6rCX9PNNM0cGhdz/yiuLMXWgq+blguLSBr0nZNAiQ=; b=DtbK1wkKpIiIR8HK865UqYjOSUKHAttv1RAECT0OGm0Pa7MVW4mGEejMKrDuVEDAKq QAL2DBqH9CxuqQbazwn0eM+OW10k4vCUJhjmjesI0a31QKJm+cOfBXneiTsSDM/ee1Wc BcCztTla5/EUIrI8wFdsqlHQHBK5BuyxzHcA7jxvjpBtwFgoajSMnPSin+G1fSDndJUB C7MXig9S+SkyA5V7Lu33j54XEY+h89bQOWGesOQPjyUJR23KJdJRONVd9ssz5Rkf13lr zLfmPapww/44Boa6Ltux6ZfOkhBLgbcvWptfig/brTZN7GLnUunHf66MfJq9QqYmthvi MrZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iA6rCX9PNNM0cGhdz/yiuLMXWgq+blguLSBr0nZNAiQ=; b=0Fu29JY/s/XFEDiusZHc8mAfrGdjRgHbDS/NBK02BcKqhA5//WuI/XszpDe906qXX1 4ssL1gJPbQL8fd+Ly+ls8xbG1y8qael1T6uX2FjQ40K1RjMuPYu58A7SnvpJ2yEVLm+e WFmV5/6EueySLka2Tf80FL12mMK5AI0HjzBZvbnhhH1HI5J3mDyLMLTf5IZFPyjXlRZn TYdKTtTeJVFSEf6SPmUORDAyBYMdJ6um8hA4jvrtqrCuUTh9yWpLBSzQPUX9bw8MprE9 HQI90L1yXZjtCm8Z8k+8XqQESxqkPpt5J1FnsYuQ26O3wdlXhzeS66kl4Jcua3qBjrez 4Fow== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9xAqTqbBFJ/suZCWmWmvbFN4cH8HtHI+8lUSvNWXWnOAG8mE2z ULJW9V+vjcRI7pC0W6xDuQiaQUsIAK8DRkAmmYOnCj4Dszg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1u8gN852P0ZURCdhC0VRYOYJjTUviPUBqKsLBPffFwBWxXsGdbkBE3WiYk4jhTaAYblckvMbHQIl3487U/ABAE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:c4f:b0:351:938d:6863 with SMTP id y15-20020a0561020c4f00b00351938d6863mr17138224vss.12.1656003184427; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211126160454.3eb827365a02103169ab9adc@bidouilliste.com> <20220621201924.e9b96876c947140ac1f3b7a4@bidouilliste.com> <3d09c86a-9840-f8bf-4725-8098d958a01d@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> <202206211901.25LJ1uBd067376@critter.freebsd.dk> <20220622044923.6e2fac81c1e8205872d9de11@bidouilliste.com> <6b7997d6-f8ed-c4e4-91eb-da9b20eb0a14@grosbein.net> <8d6ae56e-9265-6b2e-c966-1c51f00f6c88@grosbein.net> <20220624011504.ab5591564ee40d5f0310bebd@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20220624011504.ab5591564ee40d5f0310bebd@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 10:52:53 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Reasons for keeping sc(4) and libvgl ? To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Eugene Grosbein , Steve Kargl , Stefan Blachmann , Emmanuel Vadot , Ed Maste , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e1f6305e220495a" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4LTRC50811z57D6 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.s=20210112 header.b=DtbK1wkK; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.95 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:s=20210112]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.988]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.960]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[grosbein.net,troutmask.apl.washington.edu,gmail.com,bidouilliste.com,freebsd.org,phk.freebsd.dk] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000008e1f6305e220495a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 10:15 AM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:44:28 -0600 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:37 AM Eugene Grosbein > wrote: > > > > > 23.06.2022 22:26, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > Giant is being removed entirely, and with it all straggler drivers > that > > > aren't converted by the removal date. > > > > There's no fixed date for this, at the present time, but I'm about to > > > commit changes that make it impossible > > > > for new code to reference Giant. Having Giant, at all, causes slow > downs > > > elsewhere in the system, which > > > > is why we're pushing to remove it entirely. > > > > > > Why is it better to lose working code then to keep it "slow"? > > > > > > > Supporting Giant, at all, means creating extra taskqueues, processes, > etc. > > It means extra checks in > > all the code paths since Giant is so 'special'. To do this just to > support > > an obsolete console seems to > > many to be an unwise tradeoff once everything else is in order. > Especially > > since there have been years > > for people that care about the problems to arrange solutions. > > > > We are still some time away from everything else eliminating Giant, so > > there's still time to get things > > fixed. However, the increasingly obscure nature of the problems and/or > > their diminished relevancy > > to the project means that absent code showing up (either from the > hobbyist > > community or from > > funded work), the problems will remain because the limited resources of > > those working on the > > project aren't ample enough for them to be solved. If they are important > to > > you, and nobody > > else is working on them, now is your chance. Ideally, there'd be enough > > time and people to > > solve all the problems, but there is not. > > > > Warner > > Is it possible / planned to make atkbd and psm GIANT-free? > They shouldn't go away, as at least some notebooks implements their > keyboards / pointing devices attached with them, not USB. > They're clearly show-stoppers, I think. > I agree. These truly are show-stoppers because we can't boot w/o them on a lot of hardware. Warner --0000000000008e1f6305e220495a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 10:15 AM Tomo= aki AOKI <junchoon@dec.saku= ra.ne.jp> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:44:28 -0600
Warner Losh <imp@bsd= imp.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:37 AM Eugene Grosbein <eugen@grosbein.net> wrote:
>
> > 23.06.2022 22:26, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > > Giant is being removed entirely, and with it all straggler d= rivers that
> > aren't converted by the removal date.
> > > There's no fixed date for this, at the present time, but= I'm about to
> > commit changes that make it impossible
> > > for new code to reference Giant. Having Giant, at all, cause= s slow downs
> > elsewhere in the system, which
> > > is why we're pushing to remove it entirely.
> >
> > Why is it better to lose working code then to keep it "slow&= quot;?
> >
>
> Supporting Giant, at all, means creating extra taskqueues, processes, = etc.
> It means extra checks in
> all the code paths since Giant is so 'special'. To do this jus= t to support
> an obsolete console seems to
> many to be an unwise tradeoff once everything else is in order. Especi= ally
> since there have been years
> for people that care about the problems to arrange solutions.
>
> We are still some time away from everything else eliminating Giant, so=
> there's still time to get things
> fixed. However, the increasingly obscure nature of the problems and/or=
> their diminished relevancy
> to the project means that absent code showing up (either from the hobb= yist
> community or from
> funded work), the problems will remain because the limited resources o= f
> those working on the
> project aren't ample enough for them to be solved. If they are imp= ortant to
> you, and nobody
> else is working on them, now is your chance. Ideally, there'd be e= nough
> time and people to
> solve all the problems, but there is not.
>
> Warner

Is it possible / planned to make atkbd and psm GIANT-free?
They shouldn't go away, as at least some notebooks implements their
keyboards / pointing devices attached with them, not USB.
They're clearly show-stoppers, I think.

=
I agree. These truly are show-stoppers because we can't boot w/o t= hem
on a lot of hardware.

Warner=C2=A0
--0000000000008e1f6305e220495a--