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Date:      Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:32:01 +0200
From:      Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To:        Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>, Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>
Cc:        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: newbies mailing list
Message-ID:  <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za>
In-Reply-To: <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:25:45PM %2B1100
References:  <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980301224633.27288A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au>

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Hi...

On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:25:45PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote:
> Then someone needs to find someone who runs dos/win. Even better if they can
> sit and watch someone try to access the information to see what they do.
> I wouldn't have a clue about that, having never tried it myself, but I bet I
> could find out by asking enough newbies.

The problem only lies in the way the text versions of the docs are produced.
They have hidden control codes which are Unix only (to display nicely in
more), and should really be made 7-bit clean in the build. It's fairly
simple.

When I started with FreeBSD I printed the entire handbook (helps to have big
postscript printers around :) and read it from cover to cover, skipping
things when I got bored. The postscript version should come broken down into
sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be
converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if it
works). That way Windows people (who know about Acrobat but not postscript)
can view and print things. Printing is very important, especially in the
install stage. You want to have the installation instructions clearly laid
out, so you can tick off what you have done, write down what you changed,
make other notes, write down error messages and information such as the IRQ
for your network card...

Since getting things up and running I have seldom gone back to the FAQ or
Handbook (mostly only for things like porting instructions), but when
looking at them on the web I find that they are broken down into bits which
are too small. I'd rather have them come down in larger chunks so I can
scroll up and down rather than have to move between pages.

> Actually I hope they won't interfere too much!  You might have missed in the
> backlog, it is not meant to be any kind of alternative to freebsd-questions,
> nor is it meant to be a place for questions to be answered. This will only
> work if we can enlist the support of those who know stuff to leave us to
> bumble along away from public scrutiny. It may generate some better-written
> questions. It'll also be one of the few places for someone to discover that
> they're not the only newbie alive. (I've seen little evidence of other
> newbies but they must exist) The talent can stay where it is and be there
> for everybody. The newbies can do their own thing without being expected to
> live up to everyone else's standards for every single keystroke.

Now for the real reason I wanted to reply... While reading this thread the
idea of a newbie brag list entered my mind...

How about making the list one where newbies are encouraged to share their
success stories with the community. Messages like "hey, I managed to get my
Deskjet working...", "Finally got that procmail filter up and running...",
and other tasks which most old hands would do in ten seconds. Then someone
with a bit more experience might respond by saying "If you do such and such
it'll work quicker...", but more importantly others will start asking you
questions about all sorts of related topics... There's nothing more
encouraging when you are starting out than to think you're clever and ahead
of the pack, and to have some "newbie" think you are a guru ;)...

There would be a chance that people would ridicule the simple success
stories, start religious vi vs Emacs wars ;), etc. but those could be
controlled by a simple big stick. Do it once and someone "really important"
(like a core team member :) beats up on you... do it twice and you can't
post to the list again.

Watching the success stories would also help in documenting the system,
because it will soon be noticed where people struggled. It might also lead
to less questions, because people will have instructions written by newbies
for doing newbie things. Helping with better questions? not sure... it might
take up some of the really silly questions people are to afraid to ask, like
"I don't have this /usr/ports directory people keep talking about...", but
there are always doing to be stupid questions and people who aren't even
willing to look for answers themselves. But by positioning the list as a
brag list rather than a questions list, there will be no pressure to respond
to postings, so questions will go unanswered. This might maintain a
separation between -newbies, -questions, and -hackers.

Comments? Is this sort of what you had in mind?

 -Jeremy

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