From owner-freebsd-net@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 15:13:36 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-net@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAEAC10AE905 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:13:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3C85842A1 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:13:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id n5-v6so566994ioh.5 for ; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:13:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2YXOf4VyPauBAfRAGu6+u4Z/ZAW74+nHlykIdp+IS4w=; b=bIhCsEh0fGUDbJBl7/EbA2uDFB0vGFVglRMVCaVYBp9UUqdOit2iJg8OSkshv7qe70 R1o5O56IxrLsYOGlCE+FK7RH3itEgvA8tvXd/ZrdBRiAcCaVrpZ9nOWO59zaTl34xYVs UXUZfsZ9RS/B7BCM834EPIxKewvHtnQh+T3kczm7Guatjr0GcS2Ph8QZg9yBY3+u4BtH gE+HloSwfXhhmpTLwg/ND8cRQnyNCjWDByVGddf2dViwCuezEGSsIs5B96/M61AvthDf BEI3+tppIK9a9f2Fe13Pt+K7CbBkeprMD3Q3fsAYs8ZY19RuY+z0Fg49rFHl97N4BX5P TZvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2YXOf4VyPauBAfRAGu6+u4Z/ZAW74+nHlykIdp+IS4w=; b=EIp13NbgqIw1WRLQouDbg3xSMRg8sZ8kPusZn1bv0tPaLmtqzgWkStqVH4/wOf3U9H 83ONo5IGDGWltvD+hBo6lpPN/CfRLLfFwTl/1LWMJu6eZjtg7eG2UifZ9Jadv5RIx0Xt yasuVbq7BCblPk58QbIG2oil4bETHUPSH2ulDaNs7z8QEhfvTCnOY9PDNNxiXFn6mETM ewzh+KQPGUcravilkYyF7aD8femGl1B4Akzrdyk52cbY1vA0qCP5eaDXt7AUTRKMny44 O1P1cNDaS9mgHiRQCmQ2H7gjFO5HY9aIeAVba2tZAJ+ZsSdFU7WiwlaTn1fPVryT9kAw TzaA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoimA2//rRG06vy45H5oNUx+atAWWx0pg9yDDkCiup0D96eWYgE5 h8c6a1p+cTlmLw1NNNGLLZzy+NzFciVNOC2+1u2aPwaH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61U2HQUUqOp0CJJkJfbz8A1HS0npwHJcowFlpxqMvNBlgHeJR11FrZclRinFXicG4KbOsAbrXV6+Y3wtZUo4SM= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr7869274ioa.299.1538752413806; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:13:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810051353.w95DrVkC072450@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201810051353.w95DrVkC072450@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:13:22 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-net@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Networking and TCP/IP with FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:13:36 -0000 On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one > using xe or ex. That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril. > Later in the thread rl was removed from the list. What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no reports of people using the latter two in about a decade. Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers, > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc. > You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of maintenance yourself. > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping > live code is offensive. Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ... > until their nets don't work. > I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs. There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words will not. I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware that's no longer used. Warner > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, > Munich > Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits > in EU > Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum > needed. > http://exitbrexit.uk > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fcp > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-fcp-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >