Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 02:50:54 -0800 From: Devin Teske <dteske@vicor.com> To: Josh Paetzel <josh@tcbug.org> Cc: Bruce Cran <bruce@cran.org.uk>, freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Nathan Whitehorn <nwhitehorn@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Installer Roadmap Message-ID: <D51E46BA-8902-4C42-A785-7EBF9F7A9B44@vicor.com> In-Reply-To: <201102220103.20158.josh@tcbug.org> References: <4D35CFFB.3010302@freebsd.org> <201102211612.51233.josh@tcbug.org> <EA1368DF-9728-4492-B1FC-5F7C2B521DE7@vicor.com> <201102220103.20158.josh@tcbug.org>
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On Feb 21, 2011, at 11:03 PM, Josh Paetzel wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2011 08:38:03 pm Devin Teske wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Really, the crux of the issue is that our organization is **just =
now**
>> migrating off of FreeBSD-4 (yes, it's true... there are over 1,000
>> FreeBSD-4.11 machines running in production at this very moment =
spanning
>> the entire United States, parts of India, and parts of the =
Indo-pacific
>> rim). Worse? We just added yet-another 200+ to those ranks in the =
past 2
>> months.
>>=20
>> My hat is off to you sir... as I envy your position that you can be =
so
>> free-moving. We are encumbered by entrenched methods and do not have =
the
>> luxury of trying new things for the sake of change (case in-point, =
since
>> bsdinstall brings nothing new to the table that we rely upon, it =
truly
>> would be change for the sake of change in our organization).
>>=20
>> Fin de dialectics.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Devin Teske
>=20
> Maintaining sysinstall for 4.x is indeed a NOOP, since features aren't =
being=20
> added to it, and the featureset that sysinstall supports is pretty =
much in=20
> line with the featureset in 4...no ZFS, no geom_*, etc etc etc.
>=20
> On the other hand, maintaining sysinstall for the next N years of new =
FreeBSD=20
> releases seems hard
Actually, it's trivial to anyone that has mastered release engineering =
(see release(7) and the handbook).
> , when it's already missing features compared to what=20
> FreeBSD supports,
That's the operative word here ("supports"). Lord help us when that =
changes to "requires" (that is to say, if/when the FreeBSD kernel =
becomes legacy-free with respect to supporting fdisk/disklabel =
partitioned disks).
> and that's likely to continue to grow.
We've yet to see a "must have" technology that would require us to shun =
sysinstall (as explained earlier, we have no desire whatsoever to boot =
from ZFS, gmirror, geli, GPT, or anything else missing from sysinstall).
One such possible motivation would be if we needed to create a boot =
partition that exceeds 4TB (the limits of MBR partitioning versus GPT). =
I just don't see that happening (workstations, servers, pedestals... why =
would we ever need >8GB for the operating system? all production data is =
being stored on enterprise class devices such as the NEC-D210, and being =
backed up with tapes such as LTO; In our organization every machine is =
expendable and we have disaster recovery procedures for any/all =
failures).
>=20
> I totally agree that for internal use, migrating thousands of lines of =
code=20
> makes no sense whatsoever, especially if sysinstall meets your needs =
and you=20
> don't care about the functionality it doesn't have. Exporting that to =
the=20
> community seems to be a questionable use of resources.
>=20
> I'm no stranger to large deployments. With my ${WORK} hat on we can =
install a=20
> thousand FreeBSD systems in a week. In my 16+ years of involvement =
with=20
> FreeBSD I've written three automated installers...quite frankly, =
ditching=20
> sysinstall for that happened really fast.
Good work.
However, it's a shame that you found the need to ditch sysinstall. We =
found no such need and have created an automated network installation =
process literally on the assembly line in a factory the size of a =
football stadium -- responsible for churning out thousands of machines =
per year with FreeBSD-4.11 pre-installed before they arrive on-site (all =
using sysinstall). The hardware gets assembled to-spec, slides down an =
assembly-line, a technician jacks power, network, video and keyboard to =
the box, netboots it by pressing F12, waits 5 minutes for the screen to =
finish installation, powers it off, and slides it down the line.
> I do admit to being a tad curious where you find systems that can run =
FreeBSD=20
> 4 at this point.
We're installing FreeBSD-4.11 onto modern systems, including:
Intel Server Chassis SC5299
Intel Server Chassis SR2500
just to name a couple.
Albeit, we've back-ported many drivers, such as mfi(3) from RELENG_6 to =
support the LSI MegaSAS controller.
We're no stranger to putting even the Operating System on Life Support =
for as long as it takes for our customers to bolster their budgets for =
an integrated upgrade strategy.
We have a very small yet largely talented group of individuals =
(including myself) within our organization that quickly and efficiently =
remediate lost functionality required to maintain hardware compatibility =
simply because our customers cannot stomach upgrading the OS every =
18-months (or whatever the life-cycle may be). We can't be forcing our =
customers to upgrade their entire organization everytime the OS can't =
boot from some new controller -- not when adding the lost functionality =
into the OS is only a matter of a couple weeks work (at most).
So in earnest, I should have clarified that despite running FreeBSD-4.11 =
on thousands of machines... it's actually a highly customized kernel =
_and_ install process that allows us to run on modern hardware.
> A single socket intel shows up as 8 or 12 CPUs these days,=20
> more than enough to tie 4.x into knots. Add in disk controllers, =
NICs, ACPI=20
> (modern systems use that for nearly everything it seems) and suddenly =
an=20
> installer seems the least of the concerns.
You are absolutely right. Everything about FreeBSD-4.11 is on =
life-support in our enterprise. The kernel/installer has pieces from =
RELENG_6, RELENG_7, and even RELENG_8. Life-support is our specialty as =
our clients demand it. When suppliers decide to EOL certain hardware, we =
simply back-port the necessary changes to support the new hardware. When =
FreeBSD EOL'd 4.11, that by no means gave us a right to go mandate that =
our customers immediately upgrade (which would cost potentially millions =
of dollars).
>=20
> I suppose my last question is along the lines of, "If adding =
geom_mirror=20
> support to sysinstall was easy, why has it been 6+ years since gmirror =
made=20
> it's appearance in FreeBSD and you still can't create or install to a =
gmirror=20
> with sysinstall?"
In enterprise business we rely on hardware RAID.
If software RAID such as gmirror was an acceptable solution in our =
Enterprise, I'd have personally added it to sysinstall years ago.
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Josh Paetzel
--
Cheers,
Devin Teske
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