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Date:      Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:34:22 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
To:        Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
Cc:        John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, "Pedro F. Giffuni" <giffunip@asme.org>, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.3.95.980425130737.5155A-100000@orion.webspan.net>
In-Reply-To: <19980425185920.A8244@shale.csir.co.za>

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On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Jeremy Lea wrote:

> I don't know about anyone else here, but I've been following (speed reading
> :) some of the mozilla.org mailing lists, and my impression of their project
> is that it is going to take them at least a few months to settle into a
> development model. There is still a lot of worship of people @netscape.com,
> (much like FreeBSD does with -core ;), and there are big problems between
> the Linux and Windows groups. The Linux guys want a 'killer app' and the
> Windows guys want IE4.
> 
> I would really like to see them 'encouraged' into a FreeBSD model. I think
> that the importance of mozilla.org lies in publicity, not in it becoming a
> 'killer app'. The project has a very high media status, and will attract

That is all good in theory and that was MY hope as well, but I dont think
thats what there goal is. Jamie at netscape sent an email here a few days
ago after my big hoo ha about why mozilla people didn't even KNOW we were
interestd in helping them out or getting our FreeBSD mozilla list mirrored
at mozilla.org. And according to jamie that would just splinter the effort
of trying to unify mozilla to one unix platform. But as JB pointed out
we've been there and done that it doesnt work it's a pipe dream. There is
no standard unix. So as far as I see it their hope of one grand unified
unix port of mozilla is not going to work. If mozilla feels that FreeBSD
maintaining its own mozilla tree and mailing lists has no value to mozilla
other than to splinter the mozilla effort into "factions" linux vs FreeBSD
then thats their right. This is of course all my opinion only. So I think
we just need to concentrate on keeping a mozilla/FreeBSD port alive. If
they don't want our patches to make mozilla compile on FreeBSD thats cool.
If they want to persue their rand unified unix port thats cool too.
I think we know that road will be fruitless but thats their right. So the
only HELP and press we can get out of this is to help them with CVS
issues. Which are really behind the scenes efforts. We might get a thank
you somewhere for it but I doubt much more. 


> more companies to look into open source software. If they develop a
> fanatical Linux type structure then it will make people weary, and if they
> just try to emulate M$, then people would rather go straight to Bill. But if
> they see a level headed, mature organisation, with committed people and a
> bossiness like manner (which I believe FreeBSD has most of the time ;), then
> companies will be willing to forge ties (and Netscape might not can the
> project).

Well after todays suit by WANG Global over their "patents" against
netscape you have to wonder WHY? well check out http://microsoft.wang.com
and theirs your answer. M$ is the most worthless, unfair, greedy piece of
!@#% company on the plane! They have more than likely pushed wang into
filing this insane suit against netscape because they CANT STAND the fact
they have competition and the fact they will loose share to netscape with
all the added programming muscle and creativeness mozilla now has at their
disposal. Its absolutely disgusting! 

> I'm not sure what I could do to help. John, you say there are behind the
> scenes communications. Are these to do with helping them set up CVS, etc?

There are or were a couple of emails to chris @netscape but after jamies
last letter I dont think there is much of a role besides CVS help we can
offer them. They are not interested in supporting individual efforts to
make mozilla compile on every platform. They have said there is no reason
for it, that as long as it's written in ANSI C it should compile on ALL
unix platforms. So this is where the differences are right now. I think we
can still help them out alot with CVS. That much I know both camps can
agree on.

> My wish is that FreeBSD would leverage (now there's a nice marketing word :)
> their existing worldwide mirrors to make an 'instant' worldwide mozilla.org
> (ie cvsup.za.mozilla.org, etc), by making pointers in mozilla..org's DNS to
> freebsd.org's and getting the FreeBSD mirror sites to mirror Mozilla (via
> CVS and FTP tarballs of the source and binaries). We could do this quickly
> and it wouldn't consume much resources (not as much as say the distfiles or
> packages). We could also help them set up GNATS, www mirrors, cvsweb
> interfaces, and other infrastructure to help them. FreeBSD's mirror
> infrastructure is something that none of the Linux distributions can offer,
> although we must not stop them from using other mirror sites and especially
> from weaning themselves off our infrastructure.
> 
> As for advocacy, I've found in my short life that the best way to make
> friends is to give without asking in return. If they want to thank us for
> the help then that is up to them, but if they don't then we don't help them
> so much. I think the current netscape people within mozilla.org are clever
> enough to know that. If we go with "you can have my toy, but only if you
> promise to be my friend" blackmail, then it will put them off. We could ask
> them after doing it, and it is working, if they wouldn't mind making a joint
> press release. We could also ask for a FreeBSD developer(s) to be given
> access to their CVS tree to be responsible for the FreeBSD version of
> Mozilla. And in the future when we politely ask Netscape why the FreeBSD
> version of Communicator is not officially supported we'd get a much
> friendlier response.

Again all of this is my opinion but netscape I dont think is interested in
supporting a "FreeBSD" version they support a "UNIX" version. I think
thats what jamie from netscape said in his last email. I dont really see
what we can do beyond CVS for them. They want to develop a SINLGE unix
version, they dont want to get into FreeBSD vs Linux vs NetBSD issues.
They were approached to mirror freebsd-mozilla on mozilla.org and I
explained why we had our own CVS tree for a FreeBSD slanted version of
FreeBSD/Mozilla. Neither of which they wanted a part of because they did
NOT want to splinter the mozilla effort into factions. That was my take on
it anyway. The facts may be skewed or incorrect so REFER to jamies email
reply to my mail and jb's mail about FreeBSD/mozilla issues. If you need
me to forward it to you I can. I'm not baggin on netscape im simply trying
to make CLEAR that I think our goals are conflicting with each others.

And here is a mozilla CVS tree availble at freebsd.org. See
http://www.freebsd.org/mozilla.html

Chris

--
"I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out."

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