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Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:00:49 +0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:00:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: FreeBSD Mailing List , Tim Daneliuk Message-ID: <1751079266.5066266.1681758046058@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> <20230417133223.3ef5e26c.freebsd@edvax.de> <989A99FE-5DA3-4346-B886-32F8E64BA6F0@nimnet.asn.au> <8714f66b-cd2a-2dd3-67ba-9313522ee1b6@tundrawar e.com> <1096316421.4975742.1681752853038@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5066265_268639880.1681758046056" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Q0bwy6vj5z4BJP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_5066265_268639880.1681758046056 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think we are very like minded courtesy of the training. Whenever I bring up the C compiler bug and people go.... why in the heck wo= uld i++ and i=3Di+1 execute differently?=C2=A0 They wouldn't.Ahh.... but ye= s they did.=C2=A0 It was due to the person who interpreted the meaning of o= ne versus the meaning of the other.... in assembler.... Having to go through stor(es) and inc(rement) into registers versus storing= the values of i and 1 and getting the result and storing it in the new val= ue of i.... extra steps that cost a lot in the end. I think K&R C was in use for at least 10 years before it was discovered. I remember trying to do simple digital logic circuits with Karnaugh maps et= c. and trying to optimize logic down to just a few logic gates on integrate= d circuit chips of NANDs, ANDs, XOR, OR, NOR. Trying to keep costs down by optimally lowering the amount of chips require= d to get full functionality. VAXen and PDPs with REMOVABLE DISK pack of 20 MB.... that weighed 20-30 lbs= . :)=C2=A0 Platters that were the size of vinyl records.... Running BSD 4.x I was pretty crotchety when people started with containers and virtualizati= on and... MICROSERVICES....=C2=A0 I was like:=C2=A0 you do understand what = a scheduler and time sharing are all about right?=C2=A0 You know about UNIX= , right?=C2=A0 You do know about "nice"=C2=A0 why would I want to put limit= s on some simulated machine and expect it will work better than the job con= trol and scheduler of the kernel? Yeah... boomer mentality....=C2=A0 But we continue to work on this stuff...= . Honestly, I can't wait to fully retire.... I have a lot of cycles I want = to donate to BSD. Paul On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:29:56 AM PDT, Tim Daneliuk wrote: =20 =20 On 4/17/23 12:34, Paul Pathiakis wrote: > Personally, I haven't see it yet. Again, I hated getting a CS degree.=C2= =A0 It was hell on wheels and kept running me over.=C2=A0 The incredible am= ount of math, automata theory, etc, etc. > Then, I got out in the 'real world'.=C2=A0 I was thoroughly shocked at ho= w people casually threw aside critical thinking, design, implementation, pr= oject planning, software engineering paradigms, and started to 'program' 10= years after I got out. I have a Masters in CS, and an uncompleted Ph.D. (I guess that makes me a c= ollege dropout.) Both were in the strongly theoretical end of CS, with a focus on computatio= nal theory, as well as the design of computer languages. I have found the theory to be very useful in understanding problems and reasoning about how algorithms and data structures and so forth can foster better design.=C2=A0 As you suggest, these encourage critical thinki= ng. What you see today is people screaming for "agile" when you ask for time to do careful requirements gathering.=C2=A0 Young "coders" come out of bootcamps that teach them one language and an IDE with absolutely no understanding of the overatching environments in which they are coding, let along a firm grasp of algorithmics and data structures. I feel I am far afield and showing too many Boomer feathers. "In my day, we didn't have 1s and 0s, we had Ohs and Ells and we LIKED it .= ." =20 ------=_Part_5066265_268639880.1681758046056 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think we are very like min= ded courtesy of the training.
<= br>
Whenever I bring up the C c= ompiler bug and people go.... why in the heck would i++ and i=3Di+1 execute= differently?  They wouldn't.
Ahh.... but yes they did.  It was due to the person who interprete= d the meaning of one versus the meaning of the other.... in assembler....

Having to go through stor(es) and inc(rement) into registe= rs versus storing the values of i and 1 and getting the result and storing = it in the new value of i.... extra steps that cost a lot in the end.
<= div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">
I think K&R C was in use for at least 10 years before it wa= s discovered.

I remember trying to do simple digital logi= c circuits with Karnaugh maps etc. and trying to optimize logic down to jus= t a few logic gates on integrated circuit chips of NANDs, ANDs, XOR, OR, NO= R.

Trying to keep costs down by optimally lowering the am= ount of chips required to get full functionality.

VAXen a= nd PDPs with REMOVABLE DISK pack of 20 MB.... that weighed 20-30 lbs. :)&nb= sp; Platters that were the size of vinyl records.... Running BSD 4.x
<= div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">
I was pretty crotchety when people started with containers and = virtualization and... MICROSERVICES....  I was like:  you do unde= rstand what a scheduler and time sharing are all about right?  You kno= w about UNIX, right?  You do know about "nice"  why would I want = to put limits on some simulated machine and expect it will work better than= the job control and scheduler of the kernel?

Yeah... boo= mer mentality....  But we continue to work on this stuff.... Honestly,= I can't wait to fully retire.... I have a lot of cycles I want to donate t= o BSD.

Paul


=20
=20
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:29:56 AM PDT, Tim Danel= iuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote:


On 4/17/23 12:34, Paul Pathiakis wrot= e:

> Personally, I haven't see it yet. Again, I hated gettin= g a CS degree.  It was hell on wheels and kept running me over.  = The incredible amount of math, automata theory, etc, etc.
> Then, I got out in the 'real world'.  I was thoroughly shocked a= t how people casually threw aside critical thinking, design, implementation= , project planning, software engineering paradigms, and started to 'program= ' 10 years after I got out.



I have a Masters in CS, and an uncompleted Ph.D. (I guess th= at makes me a college dropout.)
Both were in the strongly= theoretical end of CS, with a focus on computational
the= ory, as well as the design of computer languages.

I have found the theory to be very useful in understanding prob= lems and
reasoning about how algorithms and data structur= es and so forth can
foster better design.  As you su= ggest, these encourage critical thinking.

What you see today is people screaming for "agile" when you ask for
time to do careful requirements gathering.  Young "code= rs" come out
of bootcamps that teach them one language an= d an IDE with absolutely
no understanding of the overatch= ing environments in which they are
coding, let along a fi= rm grasp of algorithmics and data structures.

I feel I am far afield and showing too many Boomer feathers.

"In my day, we didn't have 1s and 0s, we h= ad Ohs and Ells and we LIKED it .."


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