From owner-freebsd-toolchain@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 28 21:28:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: toolchain@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BE1305 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 21:28:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x22f.google.com (mail-ob0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22f]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF678ACA for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 21:28:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ob0-f175.google.com with SMTP id xn12so6323422obc.6 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 14:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=ftAVp11jy2JLV6Rxfpzgbo32562PSOuuykiI2+DR0V0=; b=YMB8FZ7E7E6nE5A4DCfMxEMOmlEteIuMF0Lj5hvdBl6+XCvfd7qoN6EQg8S0jHoZ8Y VHPUhmEmhw1SfHVbGy3xN1rVXY8BeAqp2TR2TBhmkmyNjY0+P4jSZt4gxZE9Y2g8+HJv GjKcsC4plRHpmXU7VBT99TjEK9f6V7BTTc/USzpVpKPdvrPzqnJqEjA4XgPvlh6up5pR o8OfWsrWtJtzy16mQQqKXU2ubCTW+/2v1n4zoJtis5AyXGOlLJ7vPFdKq/MYtnZ9R++m xEsUJSfYpyyadhoW3Ogar7cNewixPbKazgSxg7T+3BOViZpNPe8ao8Cn9K7T7qyCN4fj nwAg== X-Received: by 10.60.131.104 with SMTP id ol8mr2356644oeb.104.1369776528165; Tue, 28 May 2013 14:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkey-bot.int.fusionio.com ([209.117.142.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b1sm26235649oeo.8.2013.05.28.14.28.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 28 May 2013 14:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Subject: Re: [CFT] gcc: support for barcelona Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <3C29AD82-077D-4E6B-94C7-5D069A130348@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 15:28:44 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <75A860E0-B057-4F0C-84FF-AA7FF372E130@bsdimp.com> References: <51A38CBD.6000702@FreeBSD.org> <51A3B8AB.5080808@FreeBSD.org> <521EEFA1-E116-41F5-B618-238E7AA092A8@bsdimp.com> <3C29AD82-077D-4E6B-94C7-5D069A130348@FreeBSD.org> To: David Chisnall X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk+X5BCDG5PwGyVGjRTfCyBCMjA3Ji+D37AFzmbRYRU+hdL4DqL0GjTnLOebOT7kla1VlFL Cc: "toolchain@freebsd.org" , Pedro Giffuni , Rui Paulo X-BeenThere: freebsd-toolchain@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Maintenance of FreeBSD's integrated toolchain List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 21:28:49 -0000 On May 28, 2013, at 12:10 PM, David Chisnall wrote: > On 28 May 2013, at 18:40, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 >> That's not going to happen soon. While it works OK for amd64, there's = still many bugs in its ARM support and even more in its MIPS support. = There's 0 chance it will be gone in 10... >=20 > I disagree. There is a significant chance that gcc in base will be = gone for all Tier 1 platforms in 10.0. There are still some reasons to = want gcc installed, but there are no compelling reasons to want an = ancient version of gcc installed on x86[-64] or ARM. For people who = need gcc, the ports collection provides a selection of recent versions. I think that's wildly optimistic. We have an integrated system, and = until clang makes it through a release, we need an easy to deploy backup = plan. While you can use clang in 9.x, it isn't default, so we're not = getting a lot of testing. While it is default in -current, there have = been many features that were default in current for years that didn't = find major, day-one problems when the release came. Today clang is useless for ARM kernels with WITNESS due to clang bugs. = While these bugs are being addressed (or maybe in the last week or two = have been addressed), there's be no stress testing of clang-built = systems to the level where we'd have high confidence that the result is = production ready. We haven't even begun to start to shake out all the = other ARM bugs that may be present. While it is true that Apple's #1 = target with clang is arm and amd64, it isn't for a system that's totally = identical to FreeBSD, so there are bound to be integration issues = lurking. And that doesn't even begin to cover ports, but at least there a = fallback to gcc strategy can be via the ports tree. History with the project follows the pattern of having wildly idealistic = goals, followed by realistic achievement in a time frame that was much = longer than was initially planned. Clang adaptation has followed this = pattern to date, and there's no reason to believe that it will be so = perfect that a fallback to gcc won't be needed for 10. Besides, it will still be needed for ia64, sparc64 and likely mips in = the 10 time frame, so it will still be in the system, and still = integrated into the system. That's really where my 0 chance comment came = from. The FreeBSD project is more than just tier 1 platforms. Warner