From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 30 12:51:44 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A00106566B for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:51:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2AB8FC08 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:51:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r56.edvax.de (port-92-195-26-82.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.26.82]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737FC3CCC2 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:51:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from r56.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r56.edvax.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id pBUCpfvf002234 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:51:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:51:41 +0100 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Message-Id: <20111230135141.edf3fb52.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20111230071500.6de15cf4@scorpio> References: <20111230073958.3949a17b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20111230071500.6de15cf4@scorpio> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Kernel Internals Documentation X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:51:44 -0000 On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:15:00 -0500, Jerry wrote: > On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:39:58 +0100 > Polytropon articulated: > > > However, there are differences in how you judge documentation > > to be _good_. Talk to a mainframer, and he will tell you a > > different story. Then talk to a "Windows" person and explain > > what documentation is, and he'll tell you that you don't > > need it. :-) > > Poly, I think you just broke your own record for retarded statements. Ah Jerry, impolite as always. :-) You're missing to identify the ":-)" symbol appended, and the MAIN STATEMENT of that sentence, which is that "good documentation" depends on _many_ factors, such as amount, location, quality, availability of translations, organisation and structure. There are many opinions of what "good documentation" is, and it depends on who you will ask. > If you were to expand your statement to include documentation for > drivers for "N" protocol devices, FreeBSD users would say that they > don't need it either since they don't have such drivers. I won't comment on this as it has been discussed already, and I think I remember that I could even agree with your standpoint in this regards. > The fact is > that Windows was designed to "just work" so that users could spend > their time on the project(s) they wanted to work on and not reading > tons of frivolous garbage on simple things like networking two or more > computers together. If the project is about developing stuff, inventing things and creating OS-related stuff, then... where can I find the "Windows" source code please? :-) How can you explain then that _I_ use FreeBSD in a "just works" state to get my projects done, whereas the praised "Windows" won't do it? Of course you'll say that I'm a minority that doesn't express in unit sales and market share, and here the discussion ends for you. What "Windows" was _designed for_... well, that is a highly debatable point which doesn't belong to this list, not even declared as off-topic. Reality - at least in my country and working field - shows that "Windows" doesn't "just work" for the majority of users here. The lack of easily accessible documentation and reasonable procedures and common standards is a main reason for people to leave this architecture. More and more of them seem to recognize that the claim "just works" is a claim, but there are more and more situations where it's not backed up, means: Does NOT work, causes downtime, causes COSTS. It might be fully different in your country and your working field, keep that in mind. > Poly, you have stated several times in a multitude of posts that you > neither use nor understand MS Windows. I have stated that I don't use it, but I understand it well enough, I can assure you. It's common practice to deny any knowledge "in the field" to not get filled up with "help requests" (i. e. "work for free") in that trouble-filled area of computing. But after all, more often than I'd like to admit I'm the guy who fixes that stuff and makes things work again, and this is due to my experience and knowledge, not because of some magic wand I carry with me. :-) > For most people, that alone > would preclude them from making a statement on said subject. Obviously, > talking about something you readily admit to having no knowledge about > is no problem for you. Pathetic. Reconsider your statement with the information of my present knowledge. Also you should know that I'm NOT "most people". "Most people" have _never_ achieved anything notable in history. This is what _exceptional_ people did, be it for good or for evil (in which case "most people" are responsible for making it happen by ambitiously helping, blindly following or ignoring). To repeat for you: You may regard my knowledge as fully sufficient to make educated statements. The fact that I avoid that in certain fields does not change that fact. Similarly, I'm not mentioning or explaining all the fields I'm familiar with, which doesn't imply that I don't have actual knowledge in those fields. You should be able to judge my credibility from the _content_ of the statements I make, seen in _context_ and interpreted properly. But maybe that's the fate of those who use a language that is not their native ones. I do know that I have certain deficites in using the english language, so this might be a reason; I'm not a native speaker. Also I'm just a man who can make mistakes. Show me a mistake and I won't be that stupid to insist on it. You know that this works (just read some of our older disputes). In fact, admitting a mistake and correcting the own attitude and knowledge is a very positive aspect of discussion culture. Sadly, I don't see that with you very often. :-) > For your own info, I am compiling a list of totally contradictory > statements you have made in the past year or so and am planning on > including it into an article I am writing. Interesting project, but wouldn't you mind contributing something useful to FreeBSD, to WiFi drivers, or to the society in general? Is your time that worthless that you can spend it for such futile things? I, on the other side, would compile a program that does the same with _your_ statements automtically so I don't waste my linear time. :-) > And no, I don't need your > permission. Have I said you'd need? You are known for picking words out of sentences and seeing things out of context, so what could I fear, except the WORST? :-) > You relinquished all rights once you posted them on a > publicly available forum. I all ready checked. Oh, very interesting. ALL rights? In every country, in any juristiction? I'm not a lawyer, but your statement may be problematic especially in regards of intellectual property as I did not include an EULA or other licensing in my message signature. :-) You see, I'm not discussing with you on a normal basis anymore as you have _proven_ to mostly be unable to - except that you _had_ brought some valid points in the past which I even told you and agreed with (which won't make it on your list, will it?); you're navigating off-topic whenever I say something about positive aspects of FreeBSD, which you try to relativate with some "Windows" statements out of context that aren't even comparable, as your N example mentioned above happily illustrates. Of course you are right that those specific drivers are missing, and that there's a significant lack in support of short-term commodity hardware sold in the home consumer sector. This does _not_ invlidate the statement that FreeBSD's documentation is regarded as _outstanding_ by a majority of experienced users, especially when compared to "black boxes" and sometimes even to how the Linux world handles documentation. Of course you will again mention that "nobody needs documentation" - okay, except inventors, creators, people who actually DO something related to get things working, or create new stuff for existing architectures. Especially in the area where no immense amounts of money can be spent to buy documentation, the availability of things such as the FreeBSD source code or the man pages can be a big help. Let me summarize: Those who just use don't need, don't even WANT documentation. That's why the documentation is primarily not intended for that audience. You won't see colorful images like from a children's book in the kernel source and the man pages to explain procedures about how to maintain the system. But I'm sure you _know_ where you can see them. :-) You will also have to agree that certain forms of documentation exist with the RIGHT to exist, because they do target different readers. Therefore Wikis and web forums exist, and man pages (which are _not_ a how-to, a collection of examples or a procedural operations list). And source code is a completely different topic as it doesn't just assume the knowledge of the language the comments are written in (i. e. English), but also of the programming languages used. This is _nothing_ any sane person would expect from a casual german user who just wants to try out PC-BSD for his home PC (to give an example). If your "just works" statement initially mentioned would be true in regards to "Windows", why do so many web forums and wikis exist for that topic? Even books can be found ("... for dummies"). What is their justification to exist if you would be right? Oh yes: Unit sales, market share. So if you're interested in a real discussion, relapse to the fact-based and polite attitude that you've been able to employ in the past. I know you can do better than what you wrote here, you've proven. And pay attention to the damn ":-)" signs! -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...