Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:18:50 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon <avg@FreeBSD.org> To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> Cc: Ian Lepore <freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle Message-ID: <4F16B8AA.2040004@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <CADWvR2jZ-uKApFbB1kK41zw5han52Y-J1i9nPmvaX27CWBR6qg@mail.gmail.com> References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1112211415580.19710@kozubik.com> <op.v78i3yxi34t2sn@tech304> <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <CADWvR2jdeu6R%2BmX1n2Uz1WUBcZ=BKWSDB4nR-rEv_P4jAZg3HQ@mail.gmail.com> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <CADWvR2j4b8f_%2BRY8ytAXQr-LKrq0iqPigAxtzTHL-8sSJbbcXw@mail.gmail.com> <4F16A83C.5070204@FreeBSD.org> <CADWvR2jZ-uKApFbB1kK41zw5han52Y-J1i9nPmvaX27CWBR6qg@mail.gmail.com>
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on 18/01/2012 13:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: > On 18 January 2012 11:08, Andriy Gapon <avg@freebsd.org> wrote: >> on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: > > [snip] > >>>> There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. >>>> There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. Maybe less for any >>>> given particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). >>>> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. >>>> Need I continue? >>> >>> Is that because there are so many bugs that need fixing or is it >>> because PRs get ignored/become staled? >> >> Sorry for saying the obvious, but it is because the PRs are fixed at slower rate >> than they are opened. > > That may be the case, but we are not talking about PRs as a whole, but > PRs that already contain fixes... They get lost in the noise quite easily. And probably not many people start their days with browsing through the PRs looking for a gem. >>> From the preceding discussion >>> it appears to be more of the latter than the former. >> >> Impressions can be deceiving. >> Honestly, do you believe that all committers are willfully ignoring the PRs just >> to cause pain to the users? Or do you consider a possibility that there is an >> objective reason why the things are the way they are? > > I was not suggesting malice on behalf of the developers at all, what I > was saying is that there is an *appearance* that developers prefer to > write new and funky code in lieu of dealing with PRs. This is > evidenced by people saying that one has to persistently nag to get the > patch looked at/incorporated. Why should that be the case, when it > isn't the case on other F/OSS projects? Let's not repeat this "other projects" thing ad infinitum. I also have experience with other projects and they are not all that perfect. Especially the large projects. > This might be another "social" > problem is that the PR and the bug busting team do not have enough > stick over devs... In a volunteer community nobody has a real stick over other people. We can try to talk each other into doing things, but nobody can force someone else, only himself. >>> Throwing toys out of the pram >>> because there's just "too much" stuff to do is really not the answer >>> I'm afraid... >> >> So what's your suggestion? But, please, nothing involving other people >> spontaneously starting to do what you believe to be the right thing. > > For starters, what would be much more appreciated is for devs to be > much more involved from the start once someone does submit the patch. Indeed, it would be appreciated. That doesn't answer the question about how to make it happen. > I appreciate that people a fallible and from time to time are bound to > forget that they have a PR with a patch assigned to them, but there's > no reason why the PR handling system can't email reminders... So software can already send the reminders, but the real problem is to assign the PRs in the first place. Currently most assignment are self-assignments. As such most of the open PRs are not assigned to anybody. > The best > way of dealing with "too much" on my plate, from personal experience, > is to start tackling things one at a time... :-) And from my personal experience I already have a several dozen items on my plate that I am really interested in. And by the time I remove one item from the plate I get a few more added. And so I just don't happen to have a day where I have to think which random PR to fix today. -- Andriy Gapon
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