From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 8 15:40:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709FB276; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:40:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dnebdal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f178.google.com (mail-lb0-f178.google.com [209.85.217.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BECC3655; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:40:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f178.google.com with SMTP id q13so5898424lbi.9 for ; Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:40:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=MYEae3D340mTKaR1e/cbazZhl7XrLLrWT/xTchj9rqQ=; b=cqgAytXXeh8plzkursjVOjvZL4dey16QBeI70tnhz78nPYU0goAZn1nGdYRiaK77cE NcwFkiR4rLYhEd7OUCUIv7iH46+53VnAVtpEQ9mC3UpXn8YS5p8sKx8NVR6juOU6x2My eNK/2IEmuO8G+34zPswf221rPIbvTDIbjcBhsnsQ6sjLREMNeVarYrLm5jdQxkvKoUaZ Rj0JpfokSY4yVDc8Qxv2wJvgnIUtoUeU8zHNM3DH5xWXd9Q4Y08PQTK9Gal3or7ga/VE jlJIfJs1ajH9JykJ15D6baJR7UTuMb5s2zmgp3Esi9Te27nlfW95N/iJI8ceqCvHR4lb fLUw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.160.66 with SMTP id xi2mr11834908lbb.97.1365435647512; Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.198.168 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Apr 2013 08:40:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <51622F44.3050604@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 17:40:47 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Growing list of required(ish) ports From: Daniel Nebdal To: Freddie Cash Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Kevin Oberman , Bryan Drewery , freebsd-ports , Robert Simmons , Kimmo Paasiala X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:40:55 -0000 On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Freddie Cash wrote: > Note: I may have messed up the quoting/attribution by snipping things. > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Kimmo Paasiala wrote: >> >> > > On the other hand, there are a number of things that I think should be >> > > pulled out of base. Some already have ports, and others would need >> > > ports created. Examples of things to pull out of base are OpenSSL, >> > > Heimdal, OpenSSH, PF, ntpd, ipfilter, bind, sendmail, and others. >> > > Code that is typically way behind the upstream project basically. >> > > >> > >> > I think Bryan already explained the reasons why pkg should not be in >> > base, it's an external tool that is not strictly required to get a bare >> > bones FreeBSD system up and running. Including it in base you create >> > yet another maintainance burden and would slow down the development of >> > the ports/packages management tools. >> >> What people seem to miss is that putting tools into the base system >> strangles the tools. Look at the difficulty we have seen in updating >> openssl. perl was removed from base for exactly that reason. Once something >> is in base, it usually can only be updated on major releases and even then >> it can be very complicated. That is a problem for any dynamically changing >> tool. >> >> I would love to see BIND removed from base, but most of the things you >> listed really are hard to remove. I know that I don't want to try bringing >> up a new install of FreeBSD on a remote system without OpenSSH and that >> pulls in openssl. In the case of many tools, it really turns into a >> bikeshed. But i can see no reason to add any of the new packaging tools >> simply because it is critical that updates be possible far more often than >> is possible for the base system. >> >> Moving OpenSSH, OpenSSL, etc into the ports tree, but making the pkgs > available on the installation media, and having a final hook at the end to > install "required" pkgs, would solve that. There's already a "do you want > to enable OpenSSH daemon" question in the installed, so adding "pkg add > /path/to/openssh-x.y.z.txz" wouldn't be hard. > > Same for bind, sendmail, kerberos, etc. For instance, just add a "daemon > selection screen" for each bit removed from base, to select which ones you > want installed as part of the OS install. > > The hard part comes in finding stub/clients for each item moved to a pkg, > such that a desktop-oriented install is not hampered (ie, SSH client is > usable, DNS lookups can be done, local mail can be generated/delivered, > etc). > > The really hard part is coming up with a migration path for those who > upgrade via source builds. > -- > Freddie Cash > fjwcash@gmail.com There's also the issue that OpenSSH is used for remote administration - being able to do destructive things with pkg without worrying about continued SSH-access is rather relaxing. With danger of entering bikeshed territory, it's one of the things that makes FreeBSD more relaxing than the Linuxes: You can blast every installed package and still be fine - and a working sshd is a part of "fine" for me, since it's kind of a requirement for doing anything else. Admittedly, my personal worst-case scenario is "drag a monitor and keyboard to the other side of the room", so I will probably survive either way. :) -- Daniel Nebdal