From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 12:15:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DC216A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D33A43D2D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) i28KF8mH008537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:15:09 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost)id i28KF81J008536; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:15:08 GMT (envelope-from matthew) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:15:08 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20040308201508.GA8114@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Donald Turnbull References: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040304, clamav-milter version 0.67j cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Donald Turnbull Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:15:22 -0000 --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 11:20:01AM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > On Sunday 07 March 2004 12:57 pm, Donald Turnbull wrote: >=20 > > Plans exist aplenty. Talk is cheap. See, for instance the libh > > project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- which > > was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to produce any > > results for about the last two years. What is missing are concrete > > pieces of code: applications that work. If you think you can do > > better than what we have presently, you are very welcome to submit > > samples of works in progress. Nope. I wrote that, not David Turnbull. =20 =20 > What needs to be done is to go back to the UNIX way of doing things, and= =20 > divide up the problem into a set of small tools each doing one thing=20 > very well. Then "sysinstall" would merely be a shell script combining=20 > the parts into a whole. I'm actually starting on one small piece of=20 > this. Contact me off list if you're interested. Now this I think will be a very productive way forward. It's much easier to write a program to do one particular thing well, and integrate it into a collection of similar programs, than it is to throw away everything and rewrite the whole lot from scratch. Problem is, sysinstall isn't really set up for piecemeal replacement, and while sysinstall may have been the canonical 'throwaway hack pressed into production' actually throwing it away means there has to be a complete full-featured replacement ready to slot in instead. =20 > I think we need both text and graphical interfaces to sysinstall or its= =20 > replacements. We need the text UI for all of the reasons everyone gives= =20 > whenever the topic comes up. But a graphical interface is more than=20 > just eyecandy if done right. A GUI can display information/controls=20 > more efficiently than a text interface, and can provide a better "help"= =20 > interface as well. It also works well with the idea that you need several different installers for different circumstances: something that you can script and that will run unattended for diskless clients or 'jumpstart' type setups; a minimal graphics installer for use over serial links; a sleek and slimmed down installer to let the gurus be as productive as possible and a nice friendly, hand-holding installer for the new and terrified. So the installer becomes some sort of shell gluing together CLI programs to do the actual work of installing the system with a series of user-interface front ends ranging from no- or low-graphics versions up to fully hand-holding-for-beginners styles. The more I look at this, the more it looks like the best thing to use is the OS environment that's meant to be being installed. For the case of the 'friendly to newbies' install, maybe start with something like a FreesBIE disk -- then you've got immediate access to the standard system commands such as fdisk(8), disklabel(8), newfs(8) etc. and an environment where you can run X-based front-ends straight away. Good luck fitting all that on a pair of floppy disks though... Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFATNRMdtESqEQa7a0RAjfRAKCC2lq9eRNH1vd/x/zy0tcZ7F8HCACbB0Bz XbUgpk9GpAgKw6D+0k7A42g= =+X4S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v--