From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:51:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE6533FAA5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mXk20CSQz4CpZ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M2wbS-1jk7PG3voa-003Iiv; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:19 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0qS6s/BkGbvc5M8GohwuRGWt74zJEs64KgTc2cGgZZuaiRElHWK sI1wgtn0quMrPFbSdIOT4RiHS1BhixAl+hGMya971cK0dnWeIMpFN20NX1Pyrj7fpJ7VgEi SILw/qLCX99vR0XeM7Kcszr6juKkLyrdK0O25EP4wxHqJTc4G48gFrxNbkcJ9MM0SvKjnGu ew1kNm8r7zG7xPyNrPOoQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Yxp1wtQ2eY8=:W9d/Q6e1C5nfX8DI9GM7Eq weGEpZIm8au9sc4bH65ysAqi0W+5A1D20eV1cbBdYwEvI5DYKTJAksIzUYzF5bRfKWkcmX6+n D005vUP9F6l2d1pXUu5X1sBgY3/GqgIlB1KW9gi0A3IXdpvNhJ0exSvOk1MCy5QYJF2AFmn84 UmOTjg5iXUNDsZ22SWNA+91xbSYTHKbcnzEnAnBHIBPQHrkUvsdoLaPhFEXuuxkEQX8tNv+wg UjE0NXT79p+a2oaE8qfeIrMUWQen8rgITTz7PFMCaayqjzg7NhSnN70hDLjTVmDd3BGwbSI3z UqxXheWsYeK/EriPX1paCuXzyOi7n/4m4e/bepuMUg+po0dp4AOwh+TkORwCCevD4TYV1xAut MWtabMqJV7y1VvvWQfN1x1a5RVar+uGlqyTfoBjEsOe9GzMCEnM0ng2rovlwdjP9n24NR02qf xRLylPMMmKPonr0bzxLL1lzzM+qzKShNXgFhT65RwbcXk0duZv3uw+Z7pt4wNs4WRgki8NhoB PCVD0cSZ0hGKEPvVoDXEHWvxQ+3B+ilj4PqaKmgMZC6ao78F6qBLfUv6NKnRUMaF1r9m5eiwM 9SxgOfbRWyLJ6jo7OzJ6TZKei6VhWS1cO8xz8Uhh866J+ZON1zNPlUINDBYp/e+boHh16IONU 2Fy7Kvfw2Z6AAOrTs+s3ge95J4N4ZABRYr/4Mmfxim9hoNSXYU7/ChVndZj0mhrPnHbVj+12N B1qYcENRQef47H/qqbmmkliFfBew8f8e/DIU1Eoitm+5Kcxwkuw6I1hB4V9VJok2x1R1n3sro R8uwRtGsSmpq0PSZtul7mRzhgQSzjDfeyBrImOWg2v6gkW8hLmZyNiIBbXpjCgcTKnUaVuk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mXk20CSQz4CpZ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.14 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.193]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.09)[-0.088]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.52)[0.524]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:22 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:18:43 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > > > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions > > of > > > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character > > plain > > > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, > > and > > > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern > > times, > > > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. > > > > Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? > > In case of support, personally I would want something that helps > > me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the > > "looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions > > becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply > > "don't look as good". > > > > You hardly get good support these days from companies irrespective of how > the email is formatted, so for the most part I don't personally bother with > emails to begin with. It's good that in general and everywhere, companies invest in skilled personnel rather than shiny ads promoting their services. And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't help anyone. :-) > Google for the most part, yields much better > results, and for the most part I don't need to care how an email is > formatted. Again, we live in an online, and connected world (for the most > part). People with technical problems (who address the mailing lists) often don't. That's why they ask for help. > > > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting > > issues > > > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. > > > > Certain MUAs display the attachmend right underneath the message, > > especially if it's things like images or text that can be easily > > embedded. Depending on the MUA in use, getting the content of the > > attachment requires one or more additional steps, but it should > > not be a problem. > > > > What _could_ be a problem is that the mailing list explicitely > > does not support attachments in general, or only allows a specific > > subset of formats (like plain text attachments). > > > > But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" > > in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: > > Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > > /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / > > devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev > > tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% > > /compat/linux/dev/shm > > procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc > > linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% > > /compat/linux/proc > > And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now > > goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that > > line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending > > on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it > > became totally useless. > > > > And I copy and paste that into a text editor, it formats perfectly. This is as it should be. Stupid MUAs would have rearranged this into a single line: > > But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" > > in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: > > Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > > /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / > > devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev > > tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% > > /compat/linux/dev/shm > > procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc > > linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% > > /compat/linux/proc > > And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now > > goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that > > line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending > > on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it > > became totally useless. It displayed in a paragraph to fit the user's settings. (I see this already in my composer window: formats nicely, adapts when I change the window size, and is absolutely useless.) The problem is not MUAs doing the right thing. The problem is MUAs "knowing better" and doing the wrong thing, therefore stopping the user from properly reading and dealing with a message. > I > agree with you, the MUA is the problem - I maintain what I'm saying > however, you're not going to change the MUA, and you're not going to change > what MUA users use, or don't use. There is no solution to this. We can go > on about this every few years, as has been happening on this mailing list > every few years since I've been subscribed to it. We can try to do the best with the tools we have, try to create better tools, and hope users will, sooner or later, use the better tools available. But as you know from history, the last part probably isn't going to happen. :-) > But if I'm offline, I might not have access to my email either? I fail to > see the difference? Use the concept of "online on demand": Connect, get, disconnect. Read and write. Connect, send, disconnect. There are users for whom this is the normal way they participate on mailing lists, and sometimes the only way they can afford. For synchronous communication, there are other tools (that will force "always online"), such as IRC, web chat, or any of the smartphone-based messenger services. > Then please don't insult me either. Where did I? (That's a honest and non-polemic question, I'm not aware I did, especially not on purpose.) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...