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Date:      Sat, 16 Mar 1996 03:36:44 -0800
From:      "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
To:        Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
Cc:        Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>, Sean Kelly <kelly@yarmouth>, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) 
Message-ID:  <22584.826976204@time.cdrom.com>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:58:46 PST." <Pine.AUX.3.91.960226164659.108B-100000@covina.lightside.com> 

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> I agree 100%!!  Once I started using Win32/MFC/VC++ I really started to 
> feel disappointed in the traditional Unix programming tools, including 
> Motif.  Typically you spend 10 times as much money under Sun (for tools

I don't think that anyone will disagree with you that the power of
MFC, VB or even things like PowerBuilder are totally absent from the
traditional UNIX environment.  Remember - I've worked for people like
Lotus and DEC and I know the issues involved when people want to port
a Windows application to UNIX.  You, as the UNIX person, generally get
to have lots of conversations with the Windows development group that
go like this: "You don't have foo?  Uh, ok, what about bar?  No BAR?
How about a BAZ toolkit?  What??  NO BAZ TOOLKIT?!?  How the &*%$*@!
do you guys write apps?  Oh..  You don't?  Huh!  That explains a lot,
actually.."

The best development environment I ever found for doing "Motif" style
apps was OI, but of course they killed that instantly.  Some day I'll
find out that OpenWare is really owned by Microsoft through a
cut-out.. :-)

However, let's not get carried away.  That is to say:

> Basically, my plan is to take the FreeBSD utilities, port them to Win32 
> with full GUI interfaces (I mentioned the details in another post), then 
> eventually be able to "back-port" them to FreeBSD, probably using TWIN.  

Bleah.  I don't think that's going to fly given that the TWIN
development environment is _not free_.  We're helping them to port it
just so the option is there for those that need it, but we won't be
able to use it ourselves.  To continue:

> If not, then at least the core functionality will be wrapped into C++ 
> classes, so some other enterprising person could write their own user 
> interface (whether Motif, Tcl/Tk, or whatever) around it.  Basically, by 

Unless that enterprising person is you, I see this all as a
monumentally wasted effort.  Sure, I can hack all manner of clever
utilities out (and was even able to use my beloved OI for the job
during a very short period of time there) but if I can't share them
with the rest of the community, they're truly useless and I should be
spending my time and energy working on more universal tools, even if
all they do is use ncurses to scribble on the screen.  That's why I
didn't release any of my OI-using utilities like adduser (which I did
for fun) - they wouldn't have done anyone else any good.

Please keep this in mind as you implement whatever system it is you
have in mind.  I don't think that Win32 is a bad API, necessarily, and
it's not impossible to implement a version of MFC that speaks Motif or
something else since that's exactly what Bristol Technologies has done
(http://www.bristol.com:80/Products/windu.html).  You just need to
provide *both* sides of the equation before it's going to be useful to
anyone.

					Jordan



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