From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 23:16:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803452CC750 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 23:16:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4921ZR12Tsz3wsN for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 23:16:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03ENGktS085771 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:16:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: In-Reply-To: <1d083a6b-f5bf-fa56-adc9-4c6cd8acb5d2@gjunka.com> From: Chris Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: Grzegorz Junka Subject: Re: Ars Technica article Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:16:52 -0700 Message-Id: <3a0f9e4c28e04b23381f7b202161a09d@udns.ultimatedns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4921ZR12Tsz3wsN X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.958,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.926,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[24.113.41.81] X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 23:16:15 -0000 On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:42:45 +0000 Grzegorz Junka list1@gjunka=2Ecom said > On 13/04/2020 21:46, Chris wrote: > > > >> Thankfully, Linux code can't enter FreeBSD base because of different= =20 > >> licensing=2E > >> > >> I hope you don't advocate for re-implementing drivers for FreeBSD?=20 > >> What about NVidia drivers that aren't even distributed with source=20 > >> code? Surely, they provide binary packages for FreeBSD, but without=20 > >> support for Vulkan for example=2E Without any documentation of the=20 > >> hardware ports how this could be even achieved? > >> > >> Besides, I am happy when I see a vendor or developer supports Linux,= =20 > >> apart from the usual Windows or Mac, not even mentioning FreeBSD=2E=20 > >> Many don't even differentiate beyond Linux, listing support for=20 > >> FreeBSD under Linux and other distro sections! > >> > >> I think we need to be pragmatic about it=2E Neither AMD nor NVidia will= =20 > >> provide FreeBSD drivers and FreeBSD can't implement those drivers,=20 > >> either for objective reasons (man power) or because it's not feasible= =20 > >> (NVidia)=2E If we can reuse existing drivers that the manufacturers are= =20 > >> releasing and updating frequently, and only focus on the=20 > >> compatibility layer, then why not? > > Agreed=2E The challenges are many=2E How? How have we managed so far? Yes=2E > > We've been (seemingly) forced to import video blobs for some (G|A)PUs=2E= =20 > > But > > what of the others? What of the French driver project; Nouveau? How hav= e > > they managed? Granted it *too* is Linux based=2E But they got there=20 > > *somehow*=2E > > Would it be a worthy venture to start a project like that that either > > imports && recobbles that project into "native" code? Or? I've been at= =20 > > this > > for over 50yrs, and I've amassed more hardware than you could imagine=2E= =20 > > Need > > to get FreeBSD on a Mac SE dsdd? NP=2E a PDP? Oh wait, that was done=20 > > l-o-n-g > > ago=2E But I've got several models available -- just in case=2E > > I'm serious=2E I'm willing to participate in whatever capacity I can=2E But > > IMHO importing Linux stuff isn't really "keeping ahead of the curve"=2E > > >=20 > Are you trying to encourage developers to start a new project aimed at=20 > reimplementing major, sometimes closed, graphics drivers, for BSD, or=20 > even just FreeBSD? A project that would cost them lots of time and no=20 > pay but possibly a gratitude from happy users? If so, a comment to a=20 > post in a list group might not be sufficient=2E The idea would need to go= =20 > out, developers evangelized, people convinced=2E=2E=2E As they say, the best=20 > leading is by example :-) Of course! Wasn't it obvious? ;-) >=20 > Jokes aside, you might be overestimating what Nouveau was able to=20 > achieve=2E First of all, they reverse-engineer=2E That means a working=20 > driver might only appear on the market after the hardware has been=20 > released and reverse-engineered=2E Sometimes long after, if at all=2E >=20 > Secondly, they only implement the minimum that's required to make them=20 > usable, which means no CUDA and no Vulkan support=2E Also look at this=20 > matrix , especially= =20 > all the mostly and todos for the already quite old chipsets=2E >=20 > Lastly, Nouveau is mostly driven by RedHat's corporation money=20 > =2E >=20 > A project of this size needs a commercial sponsor just to keep up with=20 > the pace of changes=2E Or a foundation=2E FreeBSD already sponsors some work= =20 > in the graphics stack but surely that wouldn't be enough for=20 > re-implementing drivers, so a new one? So what you're basically saying; is that there really isn't that much inter= est in FreeBSD by any users worldwide=2E So any chance of attracting developers, = and or capitol is pretty much -1=2E Depressing=2E :( >=20 > From my point of view, accelerated graphics I mostly want to use on the= =20 > desktop and I don't really care if it's coming from Linux or elsewhere=20 > as long as it properly supports all the latest features of my hardware=20 > so that my heard earned cash I spent on buying it is utilized=2E On the=20 > server I don't even use a graphic stack, I have IPMI or SSH, so none of= =20 > the Linux parts affect it=2E In all honesty, I build, deploy and run almost exclusively server images=2E I only use a light DE for convenience on development on larger projects=2E But still=2E=2E=2E Guess it's time for me to start badgering some Intel && AMD employees=2E :) Thanks! :-) >=20 > -- > GrzegorzJ --Chris