From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 12:22:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEA3333E5A for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zcqy2gtcz426X for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N3Kc6-1iwinc0qbS-010IhA; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:21:58 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:21:57 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Ralf Mardorf , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-Id: <20200531142157.fdaf5e10.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:kWxQYcSrqjEP+AgfXAcqfONOo01bomcEQCF0kj+DkBus6u3A4ZV 3dMp5rxZqmpFbLL6DDzK5YGGkoQAOxKSx+Buoy5u0LFLEq9XgPPkM72G+PJeNMyDib3tWcL TancLLYQ82Vp+eOUA7X05HYfCk5dOkGYoDip3OJtrwcMMRuvY3/nebZu0TawNEO6/JjE9Up CcaWW6hnli18klu95UkJw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:isGnuCNmasw=:+vJsItBJiw5R/UOYzVMPCg GoRnm3nFZW/ogT5Pmn1I/Oc1iLQ1tdAs+h6DToH8Ul7Q2Oxkn+K5Q2yFcrBU8J1DQP2emc4X+ Q47fF1chragyhwAb62Nv6L/qRLUZiXFQbb99y2tOmCvYy4366ynSWNBHFVW9VOBWYpnsViokj fdrCsTFIq+cV1F2WZz9paPzT4Y9/we/Qwp3ebsZ+fhP9Xha3BSV9+EXn+R+AKODNHJfcO2DLj LPY/c8gCidNhFkqMfjmZ8j5EXspxlJXS+j8zXnaiTZl254hJE7jh1yr+ZLW42jxgWVKaXcPnB QQQi07dqpZNIiyKq5UMJNeEOQHPr7CPib5IFg0raVehX4sdohhMdBIiKh7TvEKvlQFyU8rp0P OrlyGQ/E7YIsAlv0e994yJufNiDa733l9+APxRwdw+FTaFGfxrT+BcIpS7T1W2uYiaRWqi9t1 wl6HMHchNuOp710yqCSlzhP7zwd+A2ADsJZ6GMtlEoHt90PA677M1mowpl+dhQSh5MbC5XUx5 FEDEce+7drbnArXsXMX94RPXAZ2LzKjT8hEoEZIFylXdIyoYr3/7L2Boa4eagky12H4m8z7kD 2a5dPFbHbwzpsLNMUFl+PrXQrbcy+u8tYt0cbGCl3pLJwSXdpE7jvmdgCn4bEWxJxnp6hpJsj QbCGdzLsbnpyL5dr3PQwAAiTeZxwyWPJrTb0KEJHO+a2Tc2G0x7pc/46H0Q1seqmhHy5VjX3k Jpbbl1qHv8RfEYDCumnitM4jGBfDG7uuZI+7Zitsvf96DrK0LhnyFPKVh2LOolXgrECMwqlmQ RzItnWAM7V+S6MKurGYr0U526MxTW6a/rDakHjncL5ToqITBPrP3VYSYs80+EMOzSSPXhYp X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zcqy2gtcz426X X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.06 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.06)[0.060]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.040]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.56)[0.563]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:07 -0000 Allow me to comment on just one aspect of your message: On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:16:42 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Just a general comment on the "no top posting" "rule" that FreeBSD has no > one else has such a rule [...] It's not a rule, it's a recommendation, and there are valid reasons for this. In many cases, mailing list archives serve as a reference, and therefore it's helpful to be able to get the desired information from "the final message" which still contains the initial problem description. Less complex things surely can be discussed in a top-posting manner, but more complex things, especially those that discuss _more than one_ thing in _one_ message, really benefit from inline posting. And as you can see from my current message, I can even write something at the top, but not the statement that refers to what you said at the bottom of your message I am replying to. :-) > [...] and many mail clients do top posting by default > and make interleaving non-trivial (such OP's it appears). You say this as if it was something good... ;-) > Additionally > there is enough top posting being done on today's Internet that everyone > should be familiar with it and know how to read it in context. As I said, it's more _complex_ to read top-posted messages, especially those that do not contain reply headers and reply indentation. The "who said what" question cannot be answered easily, and you cannot easily follow a discusstion _thread_ with top posting. Others say it's unnatural, and just because some half-baked MUA started with top-posting as a default, it didn't improve anything. I'd like to leave those here: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Souce: http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html And: A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? I don't have a specific source for that one, sorry. > So we > might want to recommend interleaving but it should not be some rule set in > stone that will get any newbie flamed for not using it, talk about one way > to turn people off to FreeBSD quickly. As you can see from the mailing list archives, it is not a rule, and it does not prevent users from posting to the list, or from receiving helpful answers. It's just a common consensus, a thing that you can find in many communities, contexts, and companies: Some use tabs, some use spaces; some use 4 spaces, others 2, and others 8. Some use PascalCase, others use_the_underscores, and others typical camelCase. And where does the { have to be put? Depending on already existing suggestions, recommendations and standards ("rules"), if you enter a specific context, it's usually helpful if you try to adapt to the existing consensus of how to do certain things. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...