From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 17:17:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2581065674 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:17:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03C78FC23 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:17:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from [128.205.32.76] (bauer.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2CHGvsS067087 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:16:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu) From: Ken Smith To: vadim_nuclight@mail.ru In-Reply-To: References: <200803111336.m2BDaosM084555@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-wTUa056QsLD4i74fJqfB" Organization: U. Buffalo CSE Department Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:16:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1205342217.44173.40.camel@bauer.cse.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RELEASE discs & ISO images (for future) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:17:06 -0000 --=-wTUa056QsLD4i74fJqfB Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 08:50 +0000, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > I currently have no 7.0 ISOs to look at (and ftp.freebsd.org contains jus= t > symlink to all available packages, not only disc1). But I remember perl, > linux and xorg on the disc1 from 6.2 times, yes. And actually the most ne= eded > things are just perl and linux ABI, not heavy Xorg which can be moved to > disc2 - it=20 Disc1 contains all the packages necessary to get to the "Would you like to browse the pre-built packages" menu in sysinstall without needing to switch discs (which is desirable for novices as well as being able to complete that portion, not bother selecting packages in the menu, and thus not need disc2/disc3). That includes xorg because it's one of the things that can be chosen in the "Software Distributions" section. I'm planning to change that with 8.0, no longer offering to have anything that's not part of the baseline system installed until you get to the "Would you like to ..." menu. That will reinforce to people that that stuff really is packages/ports and it will make things like the monthly snapshots less of a hack (I don't include any packages on those so you get odd results if you select "All" in the Software Distributions menu for example...). But I didn't have a chance to get that stuff done for 7.0. > > The question is: What does the majority of users want? >=20 > Attraction. Ability to say "Wow! Their CD is SO handy, many > features on just one disk". Don't forget about advocacy and > opinionating new users. In my opinion the above setup (being able to make any of the selections we offer in the "Distributions" section and complete an install without needing to switch discs {provided you opt out of selecting packages from the packages menu}) is what benefits the most users. I could be wrong but this is one of those things that it's impossible to satisfy everyone all the time so a decision needed to be made and that was it. I *hope* I can merge the livefs stuff back in to disc1 by eliminating Xorg from the "Distributions" section (and the offer to install Linux as a separate thing - let them select that from packages as well). But that just wasn't possible for 7.0. We'll see if it can happen for 8.0 (and as pointed out in this thread the base system seems to continue to grow so we'll see :-). > I've suggested above - just Xorg can be moved, perl and linux ABI are not > so big. That causes even more disc shuffling pain than we have now. Disc1 currently contains both Gnome and KDE. Trying to move Xorg to disc1 means one of them needs to be moved to another disc, the three won't fit. And so many packages are intertwined among those three things the disc switching becomes way worse. As things stand now if you select "All" in the software distributions section everything from disc1 will wind up being installed before you get to the Packages selection menu so it will never ask for disc1 again. If you then just select Gnome or KDE disc2 goes in and it never asks for disc3. However if you select anything more than Gnome or KDE things go downhill fast. But nowhere near as fast as if all of either Gnome or KDE were not on disc1. Yes, we need to make sysinstall smarter about the order it installs stuff in. But I spent some time fiddling with the current layout given what I had to work with as far as meta package sizes and ISO image sizes go and this wound up being the least painful (note I don't claim painless). What I hope to shoot for with 8.0 is a CD-sized thing named "disc1" that is much like the monthly snapshots - no packages at all on it. If possible at the point we're near 8.0's release given sizes livefs will be merged back onto it. I'll have trimmed out the stuff sysinstall offers to do before reaching the "Would you like to browse pre-built packages?" menu so you don't get odd failures if you select something-or-other and no pre-built packages are available at all. And in addition to that CD-sized "disc1" we'll have a DVD-sized thing that includes everything on disc1 plus some set of pre-built packages. --=20 Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | --=-wTUa056QsLD4i74fJqfB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBH2BAJ/G14VSmup/YRAqkDAJ9mt9s7SENPaD0+YHev+PAl+/winACgkM41 Wab/d6rd285WxVjYtTsaCUc= =8iWu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-wTUa056QsLD4i74fJqfB--